What's "The Best Place" For Having PCBs Made?

[mnordbye]

ExpressPCB has their own software, which is free, but only for Windows. They're sort of middle-of-the-road in pricing.

Futurlec can use a lot of different file types, including ExpressPCB. I don't think that's been meantioned yet. 

[brett]

Hi
I had 100 boards done at Express PCB.  Cost was up (esp postage to Oz), but the quality was very good.
I'm trying Futurelec next.  Much cheaper.  They offer great service for component orders.
cheers
PS Would sweat shops be turning out PCBs?  I thought it was a technology-heavy and labour-light process to make PCBs on a commercial scale.  And except for western Europe, OZ and NZ there is a significant chance that any unskilled labour is working under poor conditions(not sure about Canada).

[WhenBoredomPeaks]

Im absolutely noob at this PCB stuff, i did everything on vero before.

Is there any company who can make you a PCB based on PCB-s drawed in graphic programs or you have to send them the specific project files of PCB designer softwares?

[Processaurus]

PS Would sweat shops be turning out PCBs?  I thought it was a technology-heavy and labour-light process to make PCBs on a commercial scale.  And except for western Europe, OZ and NZ there is a significant chance that any unskilled labour is working under poor conditions(not sure about Canada).

Probably not child labor and the like, though I could imagine all the crazy chemicals used in the process getting dumped in the river, in countries that have low standards in that regard.  That makes me want to pay more to get PCB's in the US, though I'd be interested to hear from someone who knows, how toxic the process is, and if there are regulations in China.

[R O Tiree]

Let's see...

There's the UV-sensitive resin. Not sure what's in that, but I'd imagine that large quantities wouldn't be good if dumped into the river.

The resin will be developed after UV exposure (usually) using Sodium Hydroxide solution or Di-Sodium Metabisulphite (sometimes both combined). Both are bio-hazards.

There's copper-plating for the vias and through-holes. Releases Sulphur Dioxide?

Spent etchant must be neutralised correctly, bagged and then land-filled. The copper salt in spent etchant is an extreme bio-hazard, because it is soluble in water, therefore it can be absorbed. Neutralising it correctly turns your spent FeCl3 solution into rust, copper oxide (insoluble and therefore safe) and saline solution (which can be safely poured away)

There's the various tinning processes which, again, would be a hazard if the chemicals were to be released into the environment.

Then there's glass-fibre dust from the various drilling and milling processes. Causes lung damage if inhaled.

As to regulations in China, even if they have them, they tend to be ignored. Just look at the scandal recently with baby formula milk contaminated with melamine, which killed over 1200 babies.

[mnordbye]

In defence of Futurlec, specially, is that their PCBs are actually made and shipped from Australia. At least my last order came from there, and guess my current one too. So, what do you think? 

[grapefruit]

Not that I have a problem with PCB's manufactured in China (other than potential environmental etc risks), but are you sure your PCB's were manufactured in Australia. There's only a couple of manufacturers left here. It's more likely that your PCB's went in on a bulk order (possibly put on a panel with other peoples PCB's) and were shipped back here and then shipped to you.

Cheers,
Stew.

[mnordbye]

Of course i'm not completely sure about that, but since the "from" address said Oz, i don't believe they were manufactured in, for example, China, then shipped to Oz, then to me in Norway. Just seems illogical to me.

But then i again, you never now. But i've had good communication with Futurlec. Whenever there's a problem (not that there's much problems, except slow shipping  ), they're always helpful, which makes me think they're a serious business, and i do use them for restocking my supplies etc. Never had any real trouble with them.

But back to PCB quality. My first batch was without solder masks. If you're not careful with the PCB, the copper tends to lift. But i guess that's the same with most soldermask-less PCBs. My second batch, WITH solder masks, was great. You don't have the option to choose such fancy stuff as board color and material at Futurlec, but it's a reasonable place to get your PCBs made.

[Paul Marossy]

OK, so do any of these places take an Eagle file? I just made a layout for something with Eagle, which I like because it has that auto-router feature.

I tried making a PCB layout in ExpressPCB, but it seems to be a real pain in the rear. It appears that you have to do all of the routing yourself? Or am I doing something wrong? Also, while in the program, I did a price check and it came back saying that it would be $247 for two PCBs. $233 of that was a set-up fee. Does that sound normal? Is that a one-time fee, or is that something you have to pay for each new PCB you design?!

If it costs that kind of money to have a couple dozen PCBs made up, it doesn't seem cost effective for a small batch of something. 

[Taylor]

Yes, that's how much setup fees often cost. The setup fee is for one board design, in one manufacturing run (if you do another run of the same board a while later, you'll likely have to pay the setup fee again). Futurlec has the cheapest setup fee. They also take Eagle.

[Paul Marossy]

Yes, that's how much setup fees often cost. The setup fee is for one board design, in one manufacturing run (if you do another run of the same board a while later, you'll likely have to pay the setup fee again). Futurlec has the cheapest setup fee. They also take Eagle.

OK, thanks. That's good to know. It's a lot more expensive than I thought it would be. 

[Ice-9]

Hi Paul, The thing is it  does cost that much to have a couple of pcbs made but if you needed say 100 pcbs the price will most likely be no more. For example 2 boards may cost $250 but 100 boards will also cost about $250 so it's all down to quantity.

another example i have just priced up a run of 40 pcb's  and the total price inc delivery is £79 but 100 pcb's will cost me £107, that means an extra 60 pcbs would only cost £28.

The setup fees apply to EVERY order weather its a pcb they have done for you before or a new design, the setup is really for the time it takes to set up the machine to process the order. so say you order pcb number 1 this month and want another batch next month they will then have to set up the machine again.

I am going to check out a new pcb manufacturer next week as the factory is less than 20 miles from my home but i expect that it will be cheaper to get them made and imported from japan than it would for me to drive 20 miles and pick em up personally

[Paul Marossy]

Yeah, I kind of figured that out that it makes more sense to have a bunch made up at once. All the more reason to make sure that you don't mess something up on one of your designs!

[Ice-9]

Yeah, I kind of figured that out that it makes more sense to have a bunch made up at once. All the more reason to make sure that you don't mess something up on one of your designs!

I totally agree, i am going over my design at the moment just to make sure that i don't end up with 100 useless PCB's, What concerns me is many different manufacturers accept different formats, gerbers seem to be the most accepted format but what i'm afraid of is when i export the files to gerbers i have no way to check that is what i have designed correctly within the program i use. I supose at some point i have to take a leap of faith.

[Paul Marossy]

Yeah, I hear you on that leap of faith. I will be taking a leap of faith soon myself. 

[Processaurus]

what i'm afraid of is when i export the files to gerbers i have no way to check that is what i have designed correctly within the program i use. I supose at some point i have to take a leap of faith.

Use freedfm.com (advanced circuits' free, automated file checking website) to check your gerbers.

Lots of places don't charge a setup fee, if you don't need anything special (ie you want green soldermask, 1 oz copper, white silkscreen, traces bigger than 7 mils, etc.)

[Taylor]

Who are these places that don't charge a setup fee?

[doitle]

Yeah, I kind of figured that out that it makes more sense to have a bunch made up at once. All the more reason to make sure that you don't mess something up on one of your designs!

I totally agree, i am going over my design at the moment just to make sure that i don't end up with 100 useless PCB's, What concerns me is many different manufacturers accept different formats, gerbers seem to be the most accepted format but what i'm afraid of is when i export the files to gerbers i have no way to check that is what i have designed correctly within the program i use. I supose at some point i have to take a leap of faith.

Email the people who are going to be building it and send them the gerber and ask them to look it over and see if they notice any mistakes. I'm sure they will be happy to do that. Think about it, even if it's not their fault, you get a batch of tons of useless boards then you'll be less likely to buy again.

[Ice-9]

Yeah, I kind of figured that out that it makes more sense to have a bunch made up at once. All the more reason to make sure that you don't mess something up on one of your designs!

I totally agree, i am going over my design at the moment just to make sure that i don't end up with 100 useless PCB's, What concerns me is many different manufacturers accept different formats, gerbers seem to be the most accepted format but what i'm afraid of is when i export the files to gerbers i have no way to check that is what i have designed correctly within the program i use. I supose at some point i have to take a leap of faith.

Email the people who are going to be building it and send them the gerber and ask them to look it over and see if they notice any mistakes. I'm sure they will be happy to do that. Think about it, even if it's not their fault, you get a batch of tons of useless boards then you'll be less likely to buy again.

Yeah that makes sense,