Is a tu-2 a tone sucker?

[jacobyjd]

The buffer test:
If a buffer makes anything sound much better then find the bad long cable, jack, or pedal and repair shorten it

Fixed that for ya.

[Ben N]

Nicely put, Josh. 45' of cable will inevitable affect your tone without a buffer of some sort. Of course it is true that the simpler the signal chain the purer the signal. OTOH, taken to its (il)logical extreme, that means your very best tone is unplugged. Good luck with that!

[The French connection]

don't forget to burn-in/break-in your cable with this...

http://www.haglabs.com/frykleaner.html

[jacobyjd]

Nicely put, Josh. 45' of cable will inevitable affect your tone without a buffer of some sort. Of course it is true that the simpler the signal chain the purer the signal. OTOH, taken to its (il)logical extreme, that means your very best tone is unplugged. Good luck with that!

For some players, the best tone IS unplugged 

[slacker]

Like any buffer it will modify (some considerably) any active effects in the chain.

That's not really true in my experience. A very few, pedals notably the Fuzz Face, behave differently behind a buffer or other active circuit. Any pedal with its own input buffer or just with a high input impedance shouldn't be affected by another buffered pedal or other active circuit in front of it. Obviously you loose the direct interaction with the guitars controls with any pedal behind a buffer, but unless you true bypass all your pedals and only ever use one of them at once, you're going to run into that situation anyway as soon as you turn on more than one pedal at once.

Personally I always run with at least 2 buffered pedals (TU2 and DD3) in my chain so I've never bothered to compare the sound with guitar straight to amp to hear any differences. I can get the sound I want with the buffers in there so I don't worry about it.

[jolly1423]

Here's an interesting thought--if you DO use your amp's distortion, that means you're likely to use the M13 primarily for modulation effects and whatnot. Either way, you may be better served by dropping it into your effects loop.

Now, if you're NOT using the amp's distortion, take note that your M13 has an effects loop itself. If Line6 was smart in programming that beast, you'll have a more realistic emulation, amp-wise, of your effects if you treat the M13 more like an amp than an effect, meaning you should be able to toss your delay, volume, and EQ in the send/return loop, so any distortion used in the M13 SHOULD (don't hold me to it) sound better than if the volume went in front of it.

The music I play is worship music for a youth group. We do some pretty rockin' stuff and some pretty subtle stuff too. I mostly use the M13 for distortions on the former and I use my amp distortion for the slower stuff. I think I'll try the volume in the M13 loop. I use my GE-7 for a boost more than for the eq, would you still but that in the loop?

[jacobyjd]

Here's an interesting thought--if you DO use your amp's distortion, that means you're likely to use the M13 primarily for modulation effects and whatnot. Either way, you may be better served by dropping it into your effects loop.

Now, if you're NOT using the amp's distortion, take note that your M13 has an effects loop itself. If Line6 was smart in programming that beast, you'll have a more realistic emulation, amp-wise, of your effects if you treat the M13 more like an amp than an effect, meaning you should be able to toss your delay, volume, and EQ in the send/return loop, so any distortion used in the M13 SHOULD (don't hold me to it) sound better than if the volume went in front of it.

The music I play is worship music for a youth group. We do some pretty rockin' stuff and some pretty subtle stuff too. I mostly use the M13 for distortions on the former and I use my amp distortion for the slower stuff. I think I'll try the volume in the M13 loop. I use my GE-7 for a boost more than for the eq, would you still but that in the loop?

If you use the EQ for volume boost, you'll want it after whatever distortion you're using. Placing it before the distortion really doesn't give you any more volume--you just get more distortion with little or no volume increase.

I'd say since you use both the M13 and your amp for distortion, you'll want to put the EQ, volume pedal, and delay (probably in that order) in your amp's effects loop. This will help you make the best use of both distortion sources

[jolly1423]

Great, thanks! I'll mess around with that tonight and test it out live tomorrow (Wed. night's youth night) and let you know how it goes.

[FlyingZ]

I tested, retested, and tested again!

I left out that all testing was done with tube amps. I assume SS circuitry in front of a SS amp has no affect since its all the same animal.

[jacobyjd]

I tested, retested, and tested again!

I assume SS circuitry in front of a SS amp has no affect since its all the same animal.

That doesn't entirely make sense, unless I'm missing something--are SS amps not affected similarly by unbuffered guitar signals affected by cable capacitance?

Tubes and solid state aren't oil and water...mismatched impedances still act the same way. The only real difference is that tube amplifiers distort in a non-linear fashion.

*edit* The non-linear part is what I prefer about tubes--not looking to start a T vs SS argument--I know which side I fall on. However, assuming that SS amps don't respond to a buffered signal--while tube amps do--is simply incorrect.

[FlyingZ]

That doesn't entirely make sense

Try throwing out all the math and use only your ears.
For me... a buffer makes a tube amp sound more like a solid state especially in the way high frequencies are handled. Can you make SS sound more like itself? I don't know.

[slacker]

Can you make SS sound more like itself? I don't know.

In my case a buffer in front of my SS amp has a noticeable effect. The amp's an old Vox Escort 30 all transistor amp and the input stages have a relatively low input impedance so they roll off a bit of treble with the guitar plugged straight in, adding a buffered pedal gives you some extra brightness and tightens the sound up.
On the other hand I can't hear any real difference using a buffer with my Fender Concert. Possibly a little extra brightness but nothing that you can't get rid off with the tone controls, I only use the amp clean though.
Like you said though it's all in your ears if you don't like what buffers do to your tone, then that's all that matters.

[liquids]

Like you said though it's all in your ears if you don't like what buffers do to your tone, then that's all that matters.

I hate to join the buffer argument but here I go...

I expect this kind of thing from guys on forums who are plug and play with gear, not build and play...in which case I'd nod and understand, but not here.

We have the ability to not only build, but understand why things do what here on the forum with people like R.G. etc, and the resources available for us to study.  

Having non buffered signal oftentimes creates and inconsistency that puts people back here asking 'why is such and such not working/interfacing well with XYZ piece of gear?" and the answer is usually related to impedance issues a simple buffer can fix.

I avoided buffers until I started using a piece of gear with a 20k input impedance.  I hated then because turning certain active pedals on seemed to 'mess up my tone' until I realized my straight tone was dull and weak and I was compensating for it at the amp, while the active pedal was actually restoring my signal somewhat.  Eventually I had no other option, for one, and not long after I started DIY, later learned to build and design buffers for my own purposes, isolated and within effects...and realized how important they are, and just how sensible Boss's buffers are, from their perspective.  

You see, many tube amps have internal tube-based 'buffer' stages, FYI....hey're necessary in many cases even between tube stages and before the tone stack of your amp, effects loops, reverb drivers... People that swear they hate buffers and ruin their tone in all circumstances should get rid of or mod their Marshall and Tweed Fender amps, for example.  Their tone would obviously improve if they just got rid of those tube buffer stages in there!

Buffers have to be placed and designed intelligently, I don't disagree.  If they are, they should be used and worked around.  Starting with a non-buffered tone and going to a buffered one, there will be differences you hear. If there weren't, no one would use them!

But  Saying 'buffering my tone ruined it' in most scenerios makes little sense.  If you LIKE the sound of loading and capacitance, there are better ways than avoiding buffers, which is near impossible.  Buffering makes your signal not only clearer, yes, but more consistent.  Once you hear your signal buffered, you might want to work around it in other ways rather than compare it to the more than likely, much duller sound you're currently used to...

But alas, if you insist on loading and capacitance of 'unbuffered signal' and have somehow avoided any affect that has a buffer active in it's circuitry...I guess than, rather than using a buffer in a good place and turning your amp EQ to suit, you might instead build a buffer that is followed by a resistor of your choice for signal loading, followed by a capacitor to ground of your choice for desired high frequency roll off, and leave it on all the time as the last and or one of the first thing your amp/pedal chain sees.  This would at least offer you a consistent amount of loading on your signal, rather than the inconsistencies of varying signal cable length and impedance mismatches of active pedals that are not quite buffering when on and tone sucking when off, while helping to avoid some interface issues.

Hopefully that ends my rant, makes sense, and is actually something someone who insist buffers are the devil tries out (are you listening Scott Henderson? If you only knew your beloved Xotic RC Booster which is on all the time has two buffers in it!), instead of saying buffers ruin your guitar tone... Cheers!  

[FlyingZ]

But  Saying 'buffering my tone ruined it' in most scenerios makes little sense.

Soon we will be posting schematics and quoting testimonial. It's as simple as an AB box.
I do agree buffers may compensate for faulty/bad equipment.

For 20 years I used whatever without a care in the world and only in the past 10 years have I become a tone fanatic.