McMeat: omit send/return?

[Strategy]

McMeat builders: has anyone omitted the send/return jacks?

I had a Lovetone Meatball back around '99-'00 and really never saw the appeal in this. In fact I never really use on-effect FX send/return loops.

I need to go over the schem to be sure, but can anyone confirm/deny that omitting this will not change the functionality of the rest of the circuit?

- Strategy

[Taylor]

I think the appeal is that you can use fuzz pedals in the loop to get more intense filter sounds, but the pedal uses your clean dynamics to control the filter rather than the squashed dynamics in your fuzz sound. From a very quick look at the schem, and never having built this one, I'd say if you don't want it just jumper the send output to the return input. I don't think there are any components you could do without if not using the loop.

[Strategy]

That sounds about right Taylor, thanks. I'll review the documentation and see - maybe just try it out.

Thanks!!
- Strategy

[ryanuk]

McMeat builders: has anyone omitted the send/return jacks?

I had a Lovetone Meatball back around '99-'00 and really never saw the appeal in this. In fact I never really use on-effect FX send/return loops.

I need to go over the schem to be sure, but can anyone confirm/deny that omitting this will not change the functionality of the rest of the circuit?

- Strategy

Yes - you can omit the SEND/RETURN jacks.  All you need do is omit the jacks and permanently wire C4 and C17 together (marked send and return on McMeat PCB).

I would question why you'd want to exclude the loop though - 2 reasons.

1. The manual states that placing effects with limited dynamic range (e.g. distortion) BEFORE the meatball will make effective triggering impossible. So if you lose the loop, you will lose some tonal options.
2. One of the main features of the meatball is the abaility to use external triggering i.e. using an external trigger to filter an separate audio source e.g. you can filter a guitar which is triggered by a drum track. The manual elabortaes on this. Its a cool feature which will be lost if you exclude the loop.

I've not yet built a meatball clone but I've been doing a LOT of research into it - I want to build on based upon my own a layout which will be far simpler to wire; it will be based upon the original Lovetone PCB.

[Strategy]

Ryan,
When I had an original meatball I found that for my purposes I was not troubled by changes in dynamic behavior with say, fuzzed or compressed sound going before the filter. My main instrument is actually keyboards, and with organ and things you don't get a lot of dynamics in any case, I rely heavily on my filters to have CV and/or Expression Pedal inputs for modulation.

I *did not* however know that the send/return loop could be used as you say, with external triggering. I'm unclear exactly on how that patching would work; how would the patching for external triggering work? Just taking drum machine output and running that into "return" would trigger the filter's envelope but apply that modulation to the main input signal?

I'd be pleased to see a manual for this; that's something I never had with Meatball that I might as well get ahold of as I'm in the process of building McMeat.

Meatball is one of the few pieces of gear I ever have regretted getting rid of!

- STrategy

I would question why you'd want to exclude the loop though - 2 reasons.

1. The manual states that placing effects with limited dynamic range (e.g. distortion) BEFORE the meatball will make effective triggering impossible. So if you lose the loop, you will lose some tonal options.
2. One of the main features of the meatball is the abaility to use external triggering i.e. using an external trigger to filter an separate audio source e.g. you can filter a guitar which is triggered by a drum track. The manual elabortaes on this. Its a cool feature which will be lost if you exclude the loop.

I've not yet built a meatball clone but I've been doing a LOT of research into it - I want to build on based upon my own a layout which will be far simpler to wire; it will be based upon the original Lovetone PCB.

[ryanuk]

I *did not* however know that the send/return loop could be used as you say, with external triggering. I'm unclear exactly on how that patching would work; how would the patching for external triggering work? Just taking drum machine output and running that into "return" would trigger the filter's envelope but apply that modulation to the main input signal?

Strategy
Yep - the filter and trigger can operate in isolation-ish  . The audio you want effected (e.g.) gets plugged into the RETURN. The filter trigger source (i.e. effects how/when the filter activates) plugs into the IN (lets say e.g. guitar). So when you strum the guitar, the env filter open/closes filter drums as you strum. Cool huh? You can also then use the BLEND control to balance between the filtered drums and input guitar trigger signal at the OUTPUT.

Cant say I've ever tried it but the potential sounds great !!

There's a good description here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug04/articles/lovetonepedals.htm
Manual can be found here: http://files.effectsdatabase.com/docs/manuals/lovetone_meatball.zip

Good to know that a distorted input signal wont drastically affect the triggering though - thanks for this.

Good luck with your build  I hope to start mine soon!!

[Strategy]

Good luck with your build  I hope to start mine soon!!

I'm a good bit o the way through it. I'm thinking I won't omit send/return, now, appreciate the advice there. I'm very confused because I'm using pisotones wiring diagrams and according to that, the send pad on the pcb is connected to a pin on the Sensitivity pot....so the send jack is going to have to go somewhere in between, etc.

The wiring here is a nightmare and I'm feeling like there will be a long, frustrating trouble shooting period on this project. IF I get through it with a functional pedal I'm going to post a new wiring diagram with a lot of details. I haven't worked with rotary switches on many projects and I'm feeling unsure about whether I'm correctly understanding the pinouts on the ones I chose.

here's the build thus far. still need to add send/return jacks, expression jacks, in/out, footswitch:

[ryanuk]

Good luck with your build  I hope to start mine soon!!

I'm a good bit o the way through it. I'm thinking I won't omit send/return, now, appreciate the advice there. I'm very confused because I'm using pisotones wiring diagrams and according to that, the send pad on the pcb is connected to a pin on the Sensitivity pot....so the send jack is going to have to go somewhere in between, etc.

The wiring here is a nightmare and I'm feeling like there will be a long, frustrating trouble shooting period on this project. IF I get through it with a functional pedal I'm going to post a new wiring diagram with a lot of details. I haven't worked with rotary switches on many projects and I'm feeling unsure about whether I'm correctly understanding the pinouts on the ones I chose.

Hey your build is looking good!! Like they way you've organised the pots and switches to see if you get it working before boxing it up!!

The pisotones wiring diagrams are a bit tricky to follow - I know there are a couple of errors!! The McMeat schematic is 99% correct though.

Yes - the SEND pad does connect to one end of the SENS pot. Connect the SEND to the SENS pot then take a lead from the SENS pot to the SEND jack. The SEND jack never actually gets disconnected when the loop is used. The McMeat (and my own  ) schematic confirm this. The manual states that when external triggering is used, the SEND outputs a buffered version of the input signal.

I agree - a better PCB layout project needs to be put together; the McMeat schematuc is comprehensive but the PCB could be a little better. Pisotones site tries to clarify, but unfortuantely some wiring diagrams are wrong. I am lucky to have detailled pics of a meatball and will design a better layout for my build. The schem and PCB will be issued once I'm done.

Let me know if you get stuck with the switching - Look out for SW4, which is laid out incorrectly on the McMeat schemtic, and the INTENS pot wiring, which is incorrect on the pisotones build.

[bigandtall]

This is all good to know re: how to wire the send pot. I just bought a wired up McMeat and pots/rotaries off of the for sale page and need to add a send/return before boxing it up.

What do you guys think is the smallest size box that you can use to box it up? The guy who made mine recommended a 1790 size. Sounds right to me, but any thoughts?

[Taylor]

I really find that with these Lovetone circuits, it makes life much easier to board mount as much as possible. Having all that offboard wiring makes debugging so much harder, makes the build more prone to break down, and makes for more noise.

[Strategy]

Hey your build is looking good!! Like they way you've organised the pots and switches to see if you get it working before boxing it up!!
The pisotones wiring diagrams are a bit tricky to follow - I know there are a couple of errors!! The McMeat schematic is 99% correct though.

Yes - the SEND pad does connect to one end of the SENS pot. Connect the SEND to the SENS pot then take a lead from the SENS pot to the SEND jack. The SEND jack never actually gets disconnected when the loop is used. The McMeat (and my own  ) schematic confirm this. The manual states that when external triggering is used, the SEND outputs a buffered version of the input signal.

I agree - a better PCB layout project needs to be put together; the McMeat schematuc is comprehensive but the PCB could be a little better. Pisotones site tries to clarify, but unfortuantely some wiring diagrams are wrong. I am lucky to have detailled pics of a meatball and will design a better layout for my build. The schem and PCB will be issued once I'm done.

Let me know if you get stuck with the switching - Look out for SW4, which is laid out incorrectly on the McMeat schemtic, and the INTENS pot wiring, which is incorrect on the pisotones build.

@ RyanUK:
Thanks for the encouragement here. Do you know what exactly is incorrect with the Intensity pot and with Switch 4 (which I believe is called Mode?) I'm probably not layout savvy enough to create a new PCB layout, but if I can determine a correct wiring diagram I can definitely create a very solid one of those and maybe with suggested rotary switches, very clear orientations, etc.

The "cardboard mockup" is a synth DIY trick, from building modular synthesizers (which for me runs alongside my pedal building). Highly recommended and Fomecore works well also.

@Everyone:

There is a "mcmeat with swtiches-on-pcb" layout floating around on this in another thread, but I never saw a verification for it. The thread is here:

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=54508.0

I may restart that thread and see if the author/layout author can verify the layout for others to use in the future.

- Strategy

[Strategy]

I really find that with these Lovetone circuits, it makes life much easier to board mount as much as possible. Having all that offboard wiring makes debugging so much harder, makes the build more prone to break down, and makes for more noise.

Yes, a friend and I just built Great Cheddars (lovetone big cheese) and I found it extremely helpful for testing continuity/debugging to have the rotary switch fastened directly to the PCB.

Initially I was concerned because I find that pcb mounted pots for example, I'm a real knob turner so I figure that is putting a lot of force on the solder joints...With these rotary switches however they seem very stable, as they are snug up against the pcb panel itself and fixed down in around 15 places. Its probably very unlikely to be really applying a lot of nasty force to the joints in that case I think, the strength of it is spread out over many points.

- Strategy

[Taylor]

On the real Lovetone units, both the pots and rotaries are board-mounted, and I've only ever heard positive things about their longevity.

[ryanuk]

@ RyanUK:
Thanks for the encouragement here. Do you know what exactly is incorrect with the Intensity pot and with Switch 4 (which I believe is called Mode?)

Strategy

SW4?? I meant to SW3 has an error, sorry.

SW3 on the McMeat schematic is for the filter range select - laballed from LO to Hi on the Meatball. SW3 has 2 poles - SW3-A and SW3-B. There are 2 errors.

1.   On the original unit, the range has 4 positions (Lo . . Hi) whereas the schematic only shows 3. For each pole, this switch basically parallels different caps with with cap mounted PCB, however there should be another position which is left empty and therefore only uses the PCB mounted cap. The rotary needs to be set to 4 positions, with the FIRST one not connected.

2.   The switch poles are incorrectly labeled on the schematic, which shows the switch to operate in the opposite direction tot he original meatball.

To summarise, the switch should be set to 4 positions - A1 to A4 Clockwise (from the top!) - with the wiring as follows...

For SW3-A. A1 not connected, A2 to 3n3 cap, A3 to 6n8 cap and A4 to 15n. The A pole common should connect to pad "SW3-A" on the PCB and all the other ends of the caps should be connect to pad "E".

For SW3-B. B1 not connected, B2 to 3n3 cap, B3 to 6n8 cap and B4 to 15n. The A pole common should connect to pad "SW3-B" on the PCB and all the other ends of the caps should be connect to pad "F".

As for the INTENS pot - compare the pisotones wiring diagrams for the INTENS pot and sweep switch. The INTENS pot wiring diagram shows 2 terminals tied together and joined to point M on the PCB, which is CORRECT. However, the SWEEP switch wiring diagram shows the switch wired to the SAME terminals on the Intensity pot, whereas it should be the outside, unused terminal of the INTENS pot.

I havent scuitinised the pistones site so there may be other errors also.

[Mark Hammer]

I had a Lovetone Meatball back around '99-'00 and really never saw the appeal in this. In fact I never really use on-effect FX send/return loops.

Well, then, I guess you're just not trying hard enough, are you?

The unyoking of filtering and dynamics-sensing is a key aspect of what made the Meatball (and later the Q-Tron+) so desirable.  Some applications to consider:

• Most stompbox ECFs (with the exception of perhaps the Moog unit) will use a 12db/octave or even 6db/oct filter with limited resonance capabilities.  If one wants to attain some of those so-resonant-the Chemical-Brothers-will-copy-you tones, you need to cascade a couple of ECFs.  Unfortunately, the filtering of the first one alters the envelope-detection of the second.  What to do?  Enter Meatball to the rescue.  The second ECF goes n the loop and processes clean unadultered signal, using its envelope.  Meanwhile, the envelope detection circuitry of the meatball also works from the same unadulterated source, and uses that signal to drive its own filter, superimposed on top of the 2nd unit.  Voila.  Instant Sherman Filter Bank.
• Sometimes you want a heavily compressed sound AND filtering.  Of course, with a very compressed input signal, there is insufficient dynamics at the input to elicit strong sweep from the Meatball.  Instead, plug the compressor in the loop, squeeze the bejeezus out of the signal, and filter that.  How is this different from simply sticking a compressor after the Meatball?  Simple.  The filter sweep will play havoc with the envelope-detection needed for strong compression, the same way the compressed signal will play havoc with envelope detection for filtering purposes.  The perk of using the loop is that the "breathing", normally inherent in simpler compressors when you stop playing, is eliminated by the filter being "at rest".

There's more, of course, but the key to all of it is to ask yourself "What could I do differently or better if I was able to retain the original dynamics of the signal?".

[bigandtall]

Is there any way to use the effects in the loop without the filter? If you have your Muff or Compressor in the loop but sometimes just want a muff sound or a compressed signal, can you bypass the filter?

[MarcoMike]

yes, this is possible... i posted it some time ago... here

the drawing is just a block schematic, but i guess you can figure out what to connect where....

and back on topic: I would keep the fx-loop thing. it doesn't add complexity to the circuit and it could be useful... as MarkHammer pointed out sometimes you want to filter and "compress" at the same time (think of filtered fuzz...) and you can only do it using send/return.
also, you can use the send output for a tuner...

[Strategy]

There's more, of course, but the key to all of it is to ask yourself "What could I do differently or better if I was able to retain the original dynamics of the signal?".

thanks Mark, I think I've backed out on my previous decision to omit the send/return 

Looking forward to this one

If I can get it working then there's the next most ambitious envelope-unlatching effort - applying voltage control to the circuit. On my original Lovetone, IIRC one of the first things I did was plugged an LFO into the expression jack to see if it would take- I recall that it didn't. That said, since there's already an envelope follower in this circuit it should be pretty straightforward to have an insert jack for external control voltages...

- Strategy

[Strategy]

SW4?? I meant to SW3 has an error, sorry.

SW3 on the McMeat schematic is for the filter range select - laballed from LO to Hi on the Meatball. SW3 has 2 poles - SW3-A and SW3-B. There are 2 errors.

1.   On the original unit, the range has 4 positions (Lo . . Hi) whereas the schematic only shows 3. For each pole, this switch basically parallels different caps with with cap mounted PCB, however there should be another position which is left empty and therefore only uses the PCB mounted cap. The rotary needs to be set to 4 positions, with the FIRST one not connected.

2.   The switch poles are incorrectly labeled on the schematic, which shows the switch to operate in the opposite direction tot he original meatball.

To summarise, the switch should be set to 4 positions - A1 to A4 Clockwise (from the top!) - with the wiring as follows...

For SW3-A. A1 not connected, A2 to 3n3 cap, A3 to 6n8 cap and A4 to 15n. The A pole common should connect to pad "SW3-A" on the PCB and all the other ends of the caps should be connect to pad "E".

For SW3-B. B1 not connected, B2 to 3n3 cap, B3 to 6n8 cap and B4 to 15n. The A pole common should connect to pad "SW3-B" on the PCB and all the other ends of the caps should be connect to pad "F".

As for the INTENS pot - compare the pisotones wiring diagrams for the INTENS pot and sweep switch. The INTENS pot wiring diagram shows 2 terminals tied together and joined to point M on the PCB, which is CORRECT. However, the SWEEP switch wiring diagram shows the switch wired to the SAME terminals on the Intensity pot, whereas it should be the outside, unused terminal of the INTENS pot.

I havent scuitinised the pistones site so there may be other errors also.

I do recall that the range switch has four notches, not 3, you've jogged my memory there. I will make these corrections now while I still can. As I said before this is all complicated by the fact that I feel like I might not be following the pinouts of my rotary switches correctly - damn confusing things. Once I get that ironed out, then I'll correct my switches and pots per your recommendations, and then check the rest against the schem- I just want to search and destroy as many errors as possible before I test the thing.

Thanks for your help!!!
- Strategy

[bigandtall]

yes, this is possible... i posted it some time ago... here

the drawing is just a block schematic, but i guess you can figure out what to connect where....

and back on topic: I would keep the fx-loop thing. it doesn't add complexity to the circuit and it could be useful... as MarkHammer pointed out sometimes you want to filter and "compress" at the same time (think of filtered fuzz...) and you can only do it using send/return.
also, you can use the send output for a tuner...

Interesting and pretty rad idea here. Can anyone dumb it down for me and explain what to connect to what? I'm guessing that you connect the return to the LP-BP-HP rotary switch's unused lug. Is that it? Do you have to then connect it to blend, or is that just where it goes next?