DIY cassette-based tape echo

[sean k]

After a little searching I found this on jeriellsworth.com... or something like that
"I've received several emails asking me to help modify specific types of floppy drives to record analog audio, but since all drives and taped decks are different the best I can do is explain the basic things to look for.

Enable the drive: Ground the motor pin, both select/enable pins to start the spindle motor.

Stepping the head: Tie the index pin on the connectors to the step pin.

Head direction control: Attach a switch between ground and the direction pin. This allows you to step the drive in or out.

Erasing the disk: While the spindle is turning move a strong magnet over the surface to erase the data on the disk.

Attaching the head: Try to trace the flex cable wires to one of the heads and check continuity on the pins. Attach the tape deck head wires to a pair of pins with continuity and try it out. If it doesn't seem to work try another set of pins. I've also recorded audio to the disk by hooking an audio amplifier to the head."

Theres a bunch of stuff that I'd have to understand in the above before I could do this but it's be quite interesting as a looper because, from whats written, given it always goes back to the start, using the magnets to erase means you could do partial erasing and possibly relayer over the erased parts and basically build, demo and rebuild almost like painting a picture. That'd be really interesting.

Wish she'd do a written tutorial with pictures. Asked her to be my friend on facebook so maybe I'll ask here if she accepts.

[sean k]

Also while searching around the inimical Jeri I saw something about ferrofluidwhich is normally a liquid and turns into a solid in the presence of a magnetic feild and that it can be obtained from VCR tapes. This led to an explanation of how magnetic tape is constructed, which is interesting because becaus eknowing that would allow one to "coat" any spinning wheel with the stuff it needs to store audio signals as alternating magnetic fields. This was on HowStuffWorks
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gadgets/audio-music/cassette1.htm

So we get some ferric oxide and some graphite, I suppose, and glue to an outside face of a wheel spun by a motor.

[Taylor]

Ferrofluid is amazing stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDnrFgd7yfo&feature=fvw

[ericohman]

I bought a reel tape player a few months ago. I had no intentions for echo effects when I bought it.

Last night I read in the manual about an echo effect, I tried it and I was playing around with it for hours..
However, I guess I need to have some kind of mixer or an Y cable to get the dry signal.
Right now I only have the echo because I've connected signal to MIC IN (left channel only) and LINE in directly to line OUT and the headphone jack are connected to my computer speakers.

I don't quite understand how I would connect everything.. maybe an Y-cable from the guitar so that I could connect the signal to the amp and the reel player at the same time. And also an Y cable from the headphone jack on the reel connected to the amp input. Or on a 2-channel amp I would be fine without using an Y-cable.

enough talking... here's a photo I took:
http://djoman.dyndns.org/tapeecho/_MG_4725s.JPG

Has anyone built a tape echo stompbox that they were happy with?
I like the sound of Skreddy Echo stomp box. Does anyone have any tape echo stompbox schematic they want to share?

Best regards,
// Eric

[Astath]

And how about using the VHS with 7 heads approach? Using a cylinder with some heads spinning, while a tape loop passes around it. I don't know if the video heads are capable of writing audio material, and if you can slow down the motor to a acceptable speed.

[ericohman]

Here's two link that I like to watch:
Webcor Tube Reel to Reel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4wArim6xew

DIY cassette tape echo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zstVVvoozWQ&feature=related

I wish I could understand what the guy with the cassette tape echo has done. If anyone understand the process, please explain. Maybe a layout of the whole thing or something

I'd like to start with some tape echo effect. Either a analog thing or a stompbox. Any tips on projects/schematics etc please share.

[ericohman]

and with a cassette tape delay. of course tapes like these has to be considered


they look so nice!

[ericohman]

#1
Does anyone have any idea of how an added rec head should be implemented, circuit-wise, into a walkman-style cassette player?

My idea is to get hold of a walkman-type cassette player and a record head which will be mounted next to the play head.
I've ordered the part for the "Echo-matic" stompbox that was posted here, scanned from "The Stompbox Cookbook".
If everything fails with the cassette version I could at least run the stompbox with my Sony TC-377 reel tape deck.

#2
If anyone here is sitting on a few cassette play and/or rec Heads (or walkmans) that they could sell for cheap and ship to Sweden please speak

I've got replies from the guy who did the cassette tape echo linked here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zstVVvoozWQ&feature=related

Hopefully I'll manage to build a version with cassette.

#3
Anyone else currently thinking about doing this?
Or has everyone already tried?

All the best,
Eric

[wavley]

I hate to poop on anybody's parade but I just don't think that a cassette based echo will sound that great even if you get it to work.  If you look at a space echo... to start with they use 1/4" tape with stereo half track heads wired for mono so you have full use of the 1/4" tape and this is already pretty limited fidelity, if you go to a cassette without rewiring the heads (there are four tracks on a cassette, stereo in each direction) then you reducing the amount of tape you are using by a great factor.  Also, the first head on a space echo is further away from the record head than you could physically do in a cassette and that is a slapback echo even at the slowest speed.  Even if you slow the speed of the cassette down to the point where you could get a longer echo your high frequency roll off caused by the slower speed would only add to the limited fidelity of the cassette tape width.  Add all of this to the fact that a space echo uses 1 to 4 meters of endless loop versus the few centimeters of endless loop you could fit in a cassette shell.

On the other hand I could get behind the use of radio station carts for such an endeavor considering that broadcast cart tape is space echo/echoplex tape. Or even something of the Tel Ray oil can or a spinning disc, but we really need to be thinking of at least a 1/4" head for it to ever be anything more than a gimmick. 

I have had an RE-101 for 20 years and I also own an RE-501 for the last 6 or so and have the service manuals for both, I maintain 6 or so of all the different roland models for friends, and worked on echoplexs, Stage Echos, Univox's and such for a few years at the shop.

I'll be more than happy to lend what knowledge I have to building proper tape echoes or emulations.

[wavley]

This might be a good jumping off point, not as fun as the multi head machines but easily adapted to use broadcast cart/8 track parts.

[Mark Hammer]

Tape matters.....a lot.  Unfortunately, tape thickness is related to tape integrity, and tape integrity is related to tape storage space.  Because the 1/8" cassette format was intended to make things more compact tnan 1/4" open reel, the tape is generally quite thin, such that it can squeeze into a very small space.  The amount of 1/4" tape you would need to record 45 minutes in each direction at 1-7/8ips would surprise, and maybe even shock you, with how much physical space it would take up.

What that means is that even IF you could arrange the mechanical aspect such that you had two small cassette decks flawlessly lined up to provide a smooth, level tape path.  The quality of tape you would be able to locate to fill that path would inevitably disappoint you with its sound quality.  It is not likely to be thick and robust enough to withstand the rigours of endless looping like what you see in the picture of the RE-201/301.  Could you produce tape echo with it?  Sure, but could it withstand running continuously while you played a rockabilly gig and left the slapback on for an hour?  Not bloody likely unless you had a LOT of thick tape (the stuff you might see on a C-30 cassette), and were able to fabricate a shell that would contain a lot of it.

Trust me, I've had the same dreams of scoring some micro-cassette decks from a surplus place, and rigging them to do multi-head stuff in a miniature size.  When you see the quality of tape you have to work with, though, you abandon those dreams PDQ.  Stick with 1/4".  You'll have more to lug around, but more luck and longer periods of maintenance-free use.

[Ummagumma]

Here 's one off-(on) topic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjXEiY8677w

sorry 

[Smoky Barnable]

Memphis made a tape echo using an 8 track.

[Mark Hammer]

As did Korg.  There was a time when every commercial radio station had their commercial spots on 8-track style cartridges in a rack with the sponsor name on the label end, and the DJ would grab the cartridge and stick it in the player while cuing up a recod.

Those cartridges used 1/4" tape.  The tape quality would also vary, depending on how much they wanted to stick in there, but you could buy cartridges with some fairly decent and robust tape.....or take some from an open reel and make/roll your own.

[Rectangular]

There was a time when every commercial radio station had their commercial spots on 8-track style cartridges in a rack with the sponsor name on the label end, and the DJ would grab the cartridge and stick it in the player while cuing up a recod.

Those cartridges used 1/4" tape.  The tape quality would also vary, depending on how much they wanted to stick in there, but you could buy cartridges with some fairly decent and robust tape.....or take some from an open reel and make/roll your own.

back when I was taking Audio Tech school, my teacher had an entire closet full of those radio station tapes; he got them from some small country/western station that had closed down. at the end of the semester he said I could have as many as I wanted, so I stuffed a bag full and hauled them home. I still have some of them. the cartridges are slightly different than 8 track ones, but they're all 1/4". really good quality tapes, very smooth.   never tried the tape in my tape echo, though.

I've tried to suggest this in the past, but its always stubbornly ignored:  if you want cheap tape echo, buy a $50 reel-to-reel off craigslist and set up a feedback loop with <any> mixer. done.

[ericohman]

Thanks for all thoughts.

About buying a reel deck on craigslist and hook up a mixer, that's my current setup.

Here's a photo of my reel tape player (3 head design) which can be used for tape echo:
http://djoman.dyndns.org/tapeecho/_MG_4725s.JPG

I'm waiting for the parts to build this box:
http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/Echo-Matic_b.gif

But I figured that it would be cool to make a rather big stompbox which could fit a modified walkman (w/ extra head) and a hole where you'd see the standard cassette tape. Also the "Echo Matic" circuit, all in one box.

It's hard to tell from this video about tape quality, but at least I think it sounds decent. I mostly prefer things to sound rather lo-fi...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zstVVvoozWQ&feature=related (LINKED BEFORE! yellow les paul, walkman, breadboard on his desktop...)

I don't gig, just play at home.

[Rectangular]

hey ericoman

thats pretty funny, I've got the exact same Sony Reel to reel (tc-377) that I purchased off craigslist for tape echo usage. its collecting dust though, as I found it wasn't very well suited to that job; the volume/playback controls weren't sensitive enough and it was really hard to get the kind of feedback/repeat settings I wanted. I've since switch to a small Akai recorder of similar size/price for my echo unit.

[Taylor]

There are 3-minute long premade cassette loop tapes available. This guy has some, you might ask him where he got them (he mentions them towards the bottom):

http://mysterycircuits.com/melloman/melloman.html

[ericohman]

Rectangular:
Do you remember what model the Akai is? Your description "small Akai recorder.." sounded good


Taylor:
Thanks for the link. I've seen that project on another site, but the site you linked seems to be his personal site about the project.


You who seem to have a lot more experience working with tapes maybe could clear a few things.
A record head, does it need a boosted signal or can I wire a guitar jack directly to the record head and expect decent signal?
Same with playback head, does it go through pre-amp stages to boost the signal before outputing through the headphone jack?

There's a flea market tomorrow and hopefully I will find a few tape players/walkman to start experiment with.

[puretube]

And then again, there were those ancient micro-cassettes
from these old answering machines and "dictaphones",
whose "voice-quality" came closer to that of BBDs and voicecorder-chips
and to "e-guitar-bandwidth",
and would be easier to fit into "stompbox-sized" boxes...