Anyone happen to have 0.01uf or 0.022uf TANTALUMS or ELECTROLYTICS?

[svirfnebli]

Does anyone happen to have a couple tantalum and or electrolytics caps in 0.01uf (10nf or 10000pf), or 0.022uf (22nf or 22000pf). These are very hard to find and I'm hoping someone here might have a couple. I've found 0.01uf Electroylitic, but the lowest tants i've found are 0.047uf.

I'm a guitar maker and im working on a test rig for pickups. One of the mods i'm doing is putting it a Rotary switch with 12 different capacitors of the same value between the volume and ton pots. I want to actually hear any differences myself instead of just going off what others say on the internet. I've got my 1p12t switch, and 10 different types of caps but i've been having problems locating the tants and electros. I dont mind putting caps together to reach a value, but I would prefer to use lower values in parallel as opposed to higher values in series.

I figured if anyone had a few of these caps it would be you guys..

Thanks a mil!

[Ronsonic]

Those are film cap values, you probably won't find electros or tants in those values and that's a good thing. Go ahead and experiment with the huge variety of caps that work well without a DC offset on them.

[davent]

The smallest values available on the  Digikey website for electrolytics is 33n (.033) and tantalums is 47n (.047) plus there's one oddball tant. at 33pf.

dave

[slideman82]

Can I ask you why do you need such small values in electro's?

[svirfnebli]

There are alot of myths in electric guitar (particularly dealing with Les Pauls) about the effect that certain caps have on the tone control.

I want to hear with my own ears what different caps sound like in the tone circuit. I've been able to track down everything else direct values for the above caps. I can get close, but not exact.

This may sound stupid, but I want to hear it for myself... In the same guitar, with the same pickups. So the onlything different you are hearing is the caps and minor playing differences. There are so many opinions on the interwebs and they are all conflicting. I dont want to be one of those people that just spits out what they have read. I want to have actually done the research myself.

svirf

[Nasse]

Why not put some in series to get smaller value...

[ianmgull]

This may sound stupid, but I want to hear it for myself...

It's not stupid at all BUT:

I would measure all the caps with a meter and match them as close as humanly possible. With tolerences being what they are on some caps you'll want to make sure that any sonic changes you notice are because of the caps composition material rather than it's value.

[svirfnebli]

It's not stupid at all BUT:

I would measure all the caps with a meter and match them as close as humanly possible. With tolerences being what they are on some caps you'll want to make sure that any sonic changes you notice are because of the caps composition material rather than it's value.

Oh totally agreed! I've purchased 40-100 of each cap to be able to get within range.. Im shooting for exactly 0.022 on my first test, and nice low leakage.

[svirfnebli]

Why not put some in series to get smaller value...

I've considered it, but not too sure if doing so alters how the circuit sounds.. If it is in series, does the first cap do all the "work"? Thats my fear. Im not so worried about parallel, but something says series may effect the tone beyond the sound of the cap.

[Roy]

I applaud your determination to do original research. There is too much 'magic' put about, but really it's just all science which is poorly understood.

All the many types of capacitor have their own quirks which make them deviate from the perfect i=C.dV/dt. Some of those deviations may be musically useful. Electrolytics and tantalums just aren't made in such small values, so you don't have much choice but to put them in series to get the target value. That means that the voltage across each cap is less than the total, which is only a few hundred millivolts tops. Depending on the nature of the nonlinearities, you might miss something as a result.

I could conceive some kind of op-amp thing which divided down apparent capacitance. I've not got my head round exactly how it would go, but I'm sure it could be done. Going that way, of course, you're well into academic research, because I can't see people wanting to put a 9V battery and a four-pack of op-amps (or whatever) in their guitar just to get a particular capacitor sound.

There's some interesting scope for nonlinearities in multilayer ceramic surface mount components. The X7R dielectric is quite linear, but the Y5V has its capacitance significantly modulated by applied voltage. The capacitance at zero DC can be a half of the capacitance at its rated voltage. I think that is worth looking into.


Roy Gwinn

[darron]

if RS components don't stock them (and they don't, i checked) then you'll have a LOT of difficulty finding them, sorry.

[bigchasbroon]

i have a packet from farnell and handwritten on the outside it looks like 22nf 16v there are 4 caps inside and they only have 22 and 16 on them as well as the polarity marking. my dmm doesnt have capacitance measurement so i cant check. Anyway you are wellcome to them if you want to pay the post. I Usually charge £2 to the US which covers postage and a jiffy bag and i lose out on paypal fees  

[R.G.]

I've been playing electronics for several decades now. To the best of my knowledge, electros are not manufactured in values as small as 0.01 or 0.022. Tantalums go lower than normal aluminum electros, but the smallest I found on a quick search of tantalum cap makers' sites is 0.1uF.

Using electrolytics for small values of caps is kind of a logical contradiction. Electrolytics in general, whether aluminum, tantalum or niobium oxide, have poorer characteristics than non-polarized insulator type caps when considered in the EE sense of "poorer". They have lower voltage ratings, need proper polarization, are more expensive, more fragile, have a built-in aging/decay mechanism, looser tolerances, worse drift, and so on. As a rule of thumb, electros are what you do when you need more C*V product in a smaller volume than you can get with other insulators.

So I'm guessing that it's going to be very, very difficult to find 0.01 tantalums.

i have a packet from farnell and handwritten on the outside it looks like 22nf 16v there are 4 caps inside and they only have 22 and 16 on them as well as the polarity marking. my dmm doesnt have capacitance measurement so i cant check. Anyway you are wellcome to them if you want to pay the post. I Usually charge £2 to the US which covers postage and a jiffy bag and i lose out on paypal fees 

I think that was an odd way to write the "mu" symbol rather than an "n" character. But I could be wrong. I would test the values before I trusted the handwriting.

[bigchasbroon]

i just googled the part number on the bag 100882 and it looks like they are 22UF. As you were.

[R.G.]

This may sound stupid, but I want to hear it for myself... In the same guitar, with the same pickups. So the onlything different you are hearing is the caps and minor playing differences. There are so many opinions on the interwebs and they are all conflicting. I dont want to be one of those people that just spits out what they have read. I want to have actually done the research myself.

Then you're going to have to set up an experiment where you do the following:

1. Cap values matched to at least 1% for each cap type being tested to prevent capacitor values from fooling your ear.
2. Someone else doing the switching between caps so that you don't know what cap is being tested when you listen. Humans are essentially incapable of doing fair tests where they have any knowledge of what they're testing. Google "Clever Hans".

If you don't do this, you will wind up with a favorite cap, but you will be choosing based on things other than the type of capacitor. This is one reason there are so many contradictory opinions about what sounds best on the web. That and advertising.  

[GP]

+1 on what RG said there although you could go even further.

For true 'double blind' testing it would be even better for the "someone else" to not know what they are switching to either. Better still find someone who doesn't even care about the results. it's quite interesting to read about how the supposedly neutral assistant can influence the results in a trial. for true double blind testing, however, you would need to be really quite anal about designing your test. a quick reality check does point out that this is a test of capacitors and not some potentially ground breaking new medicine.

Still, it would be great to have a definitive answer to all the hype even though i doubt you will achieve an answer that would convince anyone but yourself (even if you manage to do that!). this mojo thing will outlast us all, no doubt.

[darron]

i checked farnell. that looked like a μ rather than an n, i make that mistake when i write things quickly too lol. sigh.

[R.G.]

Still, it would be great to have a definitive answer to all the hype

There is no definitive answer to all the hype. That's what hype is *for*.   

[GP]

100% agreed on that, R.G.

I suspect that if anyone (hypothetically of course) could ever answer the question, the answer would most likely be "none (and/or all) of the above".

[svirfnebli]

Both of your points are exactly what Im going to do.

I've purchase multiples of each cap (hundreds) and will test them all and find an accurate set.

Following that, everything will be hidden in a guitar cavity and attached to a rotary switch. I will be the only one who knows the values, then I will have several players play to each other and provide thier feedback. I may even make an internet study out of it.. i.e. list options 1-12 with audio samples and no descriptions of the caps.

This may sound stupid, but I want to hear it for myself... In the same guitar, with the same pickups. So the onlything different you are hearing is the caps and minor playing differences. There are so many opinions on the interwebs and they are all conflicting. I dont want to be one of those people that just spits out what they have read. I want to have actually done the research myself.

Then you're going to have to set up an experiment where you do the following:

1. Cap values matched to at least 1% for each cap type being tested to prevent capacitor values from fooling your ear.
2. Someone else doing the switching between caps so that you don't know what cap is being tested when you listen. Humans are essentially incapable of doing fair tests where they have any knowledge of what they're testing. Google "Clever Hans".

If you don't do this, you will wind up with a favorite cap, but you will be choosing based on things other than the type of capacitor. This is one reason there are so many contradictory opinions about what sounds best on the web. That and advertising.