Pick-up coil

[therizky]

Hi.

I'm currently doing research on pickups,theres some question that i cant get off my head,which i think it will take me further to the bright side of this pick-up mystery,if i only i could find the answers,
well,before i wasted more wire and throw away my money,lets me write it.

1.is any body know the exact number of turns of vintage strat's single coils? '50,'60,'70? are they all the same? what about modern strat?     what about humbuckers? especially les paul? each coil of it.
2.if the wire breaks,can i just solder the wire together and continue winding? coz if i start over again,what should i do with this short wires?
3.is theres any way to determine a coil is meet the qualifications to be a pickup without counting it turns or measures it impedance?by its weight maybe?
4.i know more windings=hotter output,but wheres the limit? coz i found that the bigger the coil(overwound),the louder the hum,but the output is ow.
5.and also,in addition to number one,can somebody please also provide from other pickup makers? like seymour duncan dimarzio,etc

well,thats it for now,for any passing by or answers,i give my thanks ^^

thanks.

[petemoore]

  Ampage is the place: Pickup Makers !
1.is any body know the exact number of turns of vintage strat's single coils? '50,'60,'70? are they all the same? what about modern strat?     what about humbuckers? especially les paul? each coil of it.  IIUC there was no exact number of turns. The ladies that wound most of the Gibson coils to 'full'.
2.if the wire breaks,can i just solder the wire together and continue winding? coz if i start over again,what should i do with this short wires?
  The idea is to have 1 strand, but clean/solder/recoat with laquer is possible.
3.is theres any way to determine a coil is meet the qualifications to be a pickup without counting it turns or measures it impedance?by its weight maybe?
  Some go by # of turns, ohmage, or 'till 'full'. Some just overfill, then if it's too ill-defined or muddy, pull some of them back off there.
4.i know more windings=hotter output,but wheres the limit? coz i found that the bigger the coil(overwound),the louder the hum,but the output is ow.
  There's no limit, but the 'sharp pencil line' reading starts to blur...the 'distant' windings start to show phase differences.
5.and also,in addition to number one, can somebody please also provide from other pickup makers? like seymour duncan dimarzio,etc
Not sure I understand the question. Anyway you can grade my answers by reading up at Ampage.

[Mark Hammer]

I also recommend consulting the Pickup-makers forum at Music Electronics Forum (what used to be called AMPAGE).  Learn to use the search function there, because many of the questions you are asking have been asked many times.  The people there are nice, but they get bored answering the same questions over again.

However....

1) Yes, you can solder the wires together.  I have done so many times, and in fact it did not prevent a Telecaster pickup I rewound from sounding wonderful, even though there were probably at least 10 solder joints in the coil.  The one thing I will mention is that: a) those joints are hard to solder, b) solder joints increase the risk of future damage to the pickup because they are usually weak spots, and c) solder joints can often create deformities in the coil that make it loose and susceptible to microphonics.  So, they ARE feasible, but you need to take special care to do them right and keep them to a minimum.  Plus you should pot the pickup so that the risk of microphonics is kept to a minimum.

2) The number of turns "required" to be a pickup will depend on the magnets, the wire itself, and other things that may be an aspect of the pickup assembly.  I've seen designs proposed on the pickup-makers forum that use less than 500 turns, and many pickups from some 1960's Japanese guitars would use <5000 turns.

3) More turns will also create higher inductance, and change the tone; often in an undesirable way.  If you want "hotter", it may be wiser to simply use a booster, either inside the guitar or in a pedal.  You can always make the signal hotter and trim the treble, but you can never restore treble that the coil doesn't want to generate.

4) Pickup makers do not often provide a lot of information because, aside from major manufacturers, they do not make a fortune and rely on their "secrets" to make their pickups desirable.  But, that being said, you can usually find out information about some common pickups.

[PRR]

> more windings=hotter output,but wheres the limit?

More bass and midrange.

But more inductance. And there is always capacitance; a significant amount in a long gitar cord.

The inductance and capacitance form a resonator. More inductance, lower frequency.

And above resonance, output drops sharply.

This is "good" to a point. A string's higher overtones are not harmonic. With stiff steel strings, they are also significantly off-pitch relative to an ideal overtone series. You want to cut an octave or two above your highest musical note. (Some of the notes a piano or cutaway electric can reach are not so much musical as "show-off" noises.)

Since "hot" is a primary goal, you wind-up until that resonance and roll-off bite too much of your highs. Then, as petemoore said, you back off until happy.

"Hot" should NOT be YOUR goal. That's what electronics are for. You can't double the number of turns, and you can hardly double your magnet strength. But another tube/transistor in the amplification chain will give 10X-50X the signal. Only wind so the output can overwhelm amplifier self-hiss. All post-1955 pickups have ample level to overwhelm 12AX7 hiss. Then wind for "tone", that high-end resonance and drop. Don't be thinking more=better in every case.

Breaking a wire is just bad form. Sure, splice it together. I might not even insulate: the adjacent turns are enameled, so it won't necessarily short. However (especially if you wind so tight you break wire), as Mark says, eventually that splice-glob will wear-through adjacent insulation and the output will be very sad. So do it for experiment, but don't take a patched winding to a paying gig.

[PRR]

me> More bass and midrange. But more inductance, lower frequency. And above resonance, output drops sharply.

He's a rough computation. Not exact values of any real pickup, but showing the trend.



The yellow "1X" trace might be an ordinary pickup. Take this as reference.

The red "2X" pickup has twice as many turns (and we neglect practical problems like fitting 2X turns on the bobbin).

The blue "0.5X" pickup has half as many turns.

Each is driven by an approximation of a singing string, and loaded with roughly guitar-cord and -amp impedances (that capacitance is vital; and I may have under-estimated).

Below 500Hz, more turns IS more output, 6dB or twice the voltage. And half-turns is half voltage.

The 0.5X winding response extends past 10KHz, where a guitar has only inharmonic tizzzz. Too weak and excess high end.

The 2X winding has a big bump at 2.4KHz and is falling bad at 3KHz. With more realistic values, this bump/drop can happen as low as 1KHz with a too-hot pickup and long-long cord. Loud but dull sound.

Happy compromises will be "like" the yellow curve. Naturally every winder has a different opinion about this trade-off. Actually most winders offer a range of "sounds", and this tradeoff is one thing they factor-in.

In real life there is more complication from velocity effect, pole-face size, string gauge, guitar volume control. So don't believe the curves. But the trend is valid: more turns gives more bass-mid but less highs. And even if you knew the curve, this trade-off has no "right answer".