dist/OD pedals sounding harsh with my Fender Super reverb

[differo]

Hi to you all,
was wondering if anyone out there owns/plays on a Fender SR mine is one of the first silverfaces from 69/70 with ab763 circuit and JBL speakers.
Almost all of my distortion/OD pedals sound to harsh and trebly and sort of piercing. What I usually do, I run them into either Demonizer (great direct out/cab sim btw) and then into
the amp -> sound = excellent! Or into boss ME70 (only to use its cab sim) then everything sounds great. Maybe my SR is 'too clean' or something I wouldn't know..
Maybe its the speakers maybe something else.. Cleans with modulation effect sound great too. But not with the distortion pedals. This is why I'm gonna build condor cab sim to try it out if it solves this, then I could built in condor (rather small pcb) into some of the bigger pedals that I make. For now I don't own any other amp and at my gig place every amp is either SR or Bassman it just happens to be the favo amps of the guys I jam with.

Some other thoughts: I've just built a valvecaster (wanted to build the real mctube from tonepad but didn't have any tranformers at home, also did anyone try to make these running on >200V?? I live in Europe.. it would be much easier to find 220/12 than 220/24) and sound is hmmm well lets just say that I expected more. I could use it as a compressor because it kind a compresses the tone (or 'warms' it up:) ) which sounds nice with TS808 in front of it.

[John Lyons]

Are you playing with the bright switch on?
If so then turn it off and report back.

[differo]

Well basically i tried all the setups, of course I can get it to sound sort-of-ok but not the 'usual' creamy sound like the amp should sound.
There is no difference on the both dry/reverb channels. I presume if had a good eq pedal in the end would perhaps solve it but mainly
I was wondering about SR: is it really 'unfriendly' to dist/OD pedals? ts808 with moderate gain sounds I would say Ok. But through a cab sim
really great.

[ayayay!]

I run them into either Demonizer (great direct out/cab sim btw) and then into
the amp -> sound = excellent! Or into boss ME70 (only to use its cab sim) then everything sounds great. Maybe my SR is 'too clean' or something I wouldn't know..

I think that's your problem.  Your input impedence into your amp is gonna be horribly mismatched by running cab sims into another amp.  That's like amp'ing an amp, for lack of a better term.

Try just guitar -> od/dist pedal -> amp, and see what happens. 

[differo]

hi triple-ay!
when I run them directly -> problem. but THROUGH an cab sim - nice and creamy..

[ianmgull]

I have a SR and it takes pedals beautifully. I Have to have the bright switch on for my cleans but some dirt pedals can be a little fizzy because of this. When playing with the pedals EQ/tone doesn't help I've had good results adding a cap to ground at the output of the pedal.

[Mark Hammer]

Many people will set their amp tone controls for the sound they would like when running "clean".  Fair enough.  That often tends to be too bright for using pedals with.

When one uses an OD pedal to push even more harmonic content out of the amp, the OD must have the treble trimmed back, or else you get harmonics of harmonics of harmonics....which sounds not only like ass, but like second rate ass to boot.  If your OD pedal does not have a control that permits you to trim back the treble or does not permit you to trim back the treble enough, then either figure out how to provide that, or ask us how to do it.

[differo]

Ok, now I'm at home and I tried (again) various setups and I find the following:
On the reverb/vibrato channel its fizzy almost regardless how I setup the pedal or tonestack on the amp and as Mark pointed out its really bad not just like bad pedal bad - pure disaster bad.
But (shame on me for missing this!) on the dry channel if I switch down (off) the bright switch, It actually sounds (different but) pretty good! This together with some treble down on the pedal and on the tonestack (for dry channel).
Thing is that I've somehow always neglected the dry channel through all of these years, playing almost always on the other one. Now I wonder, is it possible that something is wrong on the 'wet' channel? some caps got old or something like that?
On that one is also a bit better but still not as good as on the dry one. I had this amp for quite a lot years and mostly I played on some multi-fxs never bothered about the tonestack because I always managed to tweak the sound on the fx unit. Until recently I got obsessed with diy-ing (but really deep.. ) so for that I have to thank you all for doing such a great job on inspiring/helping us 'newbies'.
I remember back in the early nighties I was sort of interested in electronics and actually built some simpler pedals (fuzz/dist-alike) but they were horrible (probably too simple design + all the bad equipment I had back then). I did nothing such since the high school but last fall I got stuck - and I love it!

[Paul Marossy]

Many people will set their amp tone controls for the sound they would like when running "clean".  Fair enough.  That often tends to be too bright for using pedals with.

When one uses an OD pedal to push even more harmonic content out of the amp, the OD must have the treble trimmed back, or else you get harmonics of harmonics of harmonics....

Yeah, I have found this to be true. And that is precisely what I do, roll back the treble on the OD pedals and find a happy medium. I don't like my tone that bright to begin with so I probably have less problems with this than other people do.

[mac]

IIRC some people say that a FF into an old silverface sounds to harshy... or was it a blackface?

mac

[DougH]

An easy fix is to use a graphic EQ pedal between the overdrive pedal and the amp. It would also be preferable to use a loop selector and stick both the EQ and overdrive in the loop. Then set your clean amp sound the way you want it. Then tweak the EQ to "de-fizz" the overdrive sound. Then use the loop selector to switch between your clean and dirty sound.

[shredgd]

Many people will set their amp tone controls for the sound they would like when running "clean".  Fair enough.  That often tends to be too bright for using pedals with.

When one uses an OD pedal to push even more harmonic content out of the amp, the OD must have the treble trimmed back, or else you get harmonics of harmonics of harmonics....which sounds not only like ass, but like second rate ass to boot.  If your OD pedal does not have a control that permits you to trim back the treble or does not permit you to trim back the treble enough, then either figure out how to provide that, or ask us how to do it.

Really words of wisdom! 

In addition, I was about to ask: "are you playing at home?", but didn't have to because you said you are. If you play in a gig or live with the amp settings you use at home, you will probably notice that those beautiful clean tones you hear at home are probably harsh, too.
And, as someone else already pointed out, be sure to keep that bright switch off: in my opinion, that's a useless feature of Fender amps! It just gave me problems, in the past, too!

Giulio

[Eb7+9]

Hi to you all,
was wondering if anyone out there owns/plays on a Fender SR mine is one of the first silverfaces from 69/70 with ab763 circuit and JBL speakers.
Almost all of my distortion/OD pedals sound to harsh and trebly and sort of piercing. What I usually do, I run them into either Demonizer (great direct out/cab sim btw) and then into
the amp -> sound = excellent! Or into boss ME70 (only to use its cab sim) then everything sounds great. Maybe my SR is 'too clean' or something I wouldn't know..
Maybe its the speakers ...

yep, you want CTS Alnico 10's in there ... get rid of the JBL's if you want to play with dirt boxes
I play a '69 SR too ... luv 'em

[Mark Hammer]

Indeed. One of the roles that guitar speakers have perennially played is that of filter, and often that of lowpass filter.  It's like the audio equivalent of "beer goggles":  many things sound MUCH better when you take out the high-frequency ugliness and detail.

[Paul Marossy]

Indeed. One of the roles that guitar speakers have perennially played is that of filter, and often that of lowpass filter.  It's like the audio equivalent of "beer goggles":  many things sound MUCH better when you take out the high-frequency ugliness and detail.

I find myself having a love-hate relationship with guitar speakers a lot. I guess I'm not happy with their frequency response in general. I am most happiest when I am playing thru a multi-effects unit with headphones on. That way I can use a wah pedal and not have it sound too harsh and stuff like that. As soon as the guitar speaker enters the equation, I start having issues. I wonder if I would like "hi-fi" speakers better.

[Eb7+9]

Indeed. One of the roles that guitar speakers have perennially played is that of filter, and often that of lowpass filter.  It's like the audio equivalent of "beer goggles":  many things sound MUCH better when you take out the high-frequency ugliness and detail.

nah ... has nothing to do with Frequency response ... you can have two speakers with identical Frequency response plots (typically extracted at small-signal levels) but considerably different Dynamic reactions when slamming them hard ...

[Mark Hammer]

Indeed. One of the roles that guitar speakers have perennially played is that of filter, and often that of lowpass filter.  It's like the audio equivalent of "beer goggles":  many things sound MUCH better when you take out the high-frequency ugliness and detail.

nah ... has nothing to do with Frequency response ... you can have two speakers with identical Frequency response plots (typically extracted at small-signal levels) but considerably different Dynamic reactions when slamming them hard ...

True, but the reason why we use cabsims when recording straight to the desk, instead of mic-ing an amp has nothing to do with speaker dynamic response and everything to do with the dramatically different frequency response of mixer inputs compared to speakers.  It's fine for Les Paul to record direct with wide-bandwidth pickups in the absence of a cabsim, but not so okay for Zack Wylde to plug into a distortion and record direct without considerable EQ-ing to mimic a cabsim.

The very use of cabsims, and the design of a great many cabsims, has a lowpass component built into it.  That's certainly not ALL they do, but it is an important PART of what they do.

P.S.:  Are the Olympics providing you with any work?

[Paul Marossy]

When recording direct, I prefer not to use speaker cab simulators, either. But I don't use any of my pedals when I record. I have a whole different set up for that.

[petemoore]

  As soon as the guitar speaker enters the equation, I start having issues. I wonder if I would like "hi-fi" speakers better. 
  Guitar speakers have their ads and diss'.
  that said I think you would !
  I was having such troubles that I hypothesized it's the dern 12'' speakers [love 'em / hate /em] in the room. The room simply is nowhere near big enough to accomodate the high intensity which is required to make the 12''s sound 'right', enough volume where bass fills in etc. and they're sounding 'speaker-ey' because they're being pushed, at least a bit. A bit of push in this room [16'x 20' I guess] to 12''s = major reflection/bounce, less than desirable and very fatigueing sound.
  I got a coupld Selenium 8''ers, 8pw3 SLF IIRC, these monsters were big bang for bukk, and totally cured the ''has to be loud'' deal, lost the 12'' grind, but the power compression [I guess] is so sweet there's really no need for 12''s around here, they start to wear me out instantly.
But I don't use any of my pedals when I record. I have a whole different set up for that.
  I used to always record with pedals, but have found other ways [such as the simple DI box] to get really nice playback.
  If you have a secret for distortion without speakers when recording I wouldn't mind to get a clue, I've yet to try Distortion into DI box, maybe that's it..