Is it wrong to profit from building kits / clones?

[scott1568]

I have been working with a local musician lately. I built him a modified Blues Breaker in return for a favor. He was using it in the studio and the engineer heard it. The engineer called me up, told me he wanted one and another local guitarist would too. So I told him a price and when they would be ready. I am going to put my logo / signature on top of the enclosure with the hopes that this will spread word of mouth as these guys play out.

My question is, is it ethical to do this? This isn't my design - which these people know. However, we all know it takes time to finish a product and that time is worth money. I draw the line at boutiques. I wont clone the products of the smaller companies- although there is an argument to be made that they borrowed form others, I still wouldn't do it.

Is anybody putting together pedals out there and charging for it? How are you handling it. I'm looking for guidance.

thanks

[daverdave]

If you look through the archives you'll find a ton of stuff about this, it's something of a grey area as far as I know.

[mth5044]

I think it would be ridiculous not to charge for your time. Not sure about putting your logo on it if you didn't actually put any work into the design or anything. You do what you feel right I suppose.

[FiveseveN]

What is "wrong", anyway? What moral system are we talking about? Christian, buddhist, kantian, utilitarian? 
My point is this is one of those issues that can never be "resolved": there are perfectly valid arguments on both sides. In the end you have to weigh them all and decide what works or is "good" for you.
As Dave said, you can find a lot of these arguments on this forum.

[petemoore]

  You'll find mostly those who would take an interest will share their feelings with you. Stick your foot in their door and be invited in or to remove it, usually diplomatically.
  Others who might find interest might not give toots about your ethics but find your profits hold their fancy, I doubt you'll ever generate such interest, but in the case you happen to, I very much doubt you'll lose your foot or even get pained very much..if you feel pressure, remove it if it is holding a door ajar...or...don't follow your instincts or advice or warnings, bash the door in and give whats for to 'them'.

[Joe Hart]

I always see pedals (mostly online, very rarely in person) with something like "Analogman" on it and it's actually a BOSS pedal. I'm not saying that's wrong or right, but isn't that even more than what you're asking? I mean, you're building the pedal from the ground up, they're just changing a couple of components. All's fair in marketing and self-promotion.
-Joe Hart

[Electron Tornado]

This is a recurring discussion on these boards. While it's a horse that's long dead to some, it's not an entirely bad idea to drag it out once in a while.

While it's good that you are concerned about ethical issues in pedal building and selling, take a minute to look at the industry from the larger pedal producers to the kit companies to the boutique brands, even down to component manufacturers.

Look at schematics of pedals from larger companies. Many, if not most, are very similar. The MXR Distortion + and the DOD OD250 are nearly identical, but neither company is suing the other. Boss and Ibanez (and others) both use the same type of flip flop circuitry for switching. There are basic circuits that are building blocks for stompboxes and other devices, and designers from Boss to boutique to DIYer can and do use the same building blocks. Each may tweak a design to produce a certain sound, but the basics remain. You'll find that boutiquers have most often taken an already existing design and modified it to optimize certain characterisitcs. Note the number of Tube Screamer and Fuzz clones that are out there.

There are a few places that sell kits that are nothing more than the parts for you to build a pedal on your own instead of buying one pre-made. None of them seem to be defending themselves in court against Boss or Ibanez or Dunlop.

Another element to look at is the electronic component manufacturers themselves. Find the data sheet for an IC and you might find application notes as well. In these, the manufacturer is showing potential users one or more basic circuits that use their product. There are pedals out there – from big producers to DIYers – that are based on the circuits in the application notes.  One example in the DIY area is the Smash Drive. Take away the tone control and it looks very much like one of the circuits in the application notes on the data sheet.

So, building and modifying stompboxes, and charging people to do that for them isn't where the trouble exists. You will get into trouble when you infringe on someone else's brand name. There is a company that makes clones of the Mosrite Fuzzrite, but they do not hold out the pedal as being an actual Mosrite, they hold it out as a reproduction. They change the name slightly as well to Fuzzbrite. No problem there. However, there have been people who have tried to clone Z.Vex pedals, copy the paint job, and sell them as actual Z.Vex pedals. Bad voodoo there.

Another question deals with doing and selling pedals with well known mods associated with a person or their brand. One example is the Boss DS-1 with Keeley mods. Keeley published the seeing eye and ultra mods, and I have done the mods to a couple of DS-1s and sold them. When I wrote the ad, I stated that the pedal had those two Keeley mods done – done by me, not Keeley. That way there is no mistake about what I was selling.

The point of all this is that fuzz, distortion, overdrive pedals all do three basic things – amplify, clip, and filter. You should feel free to use the tools and information available to build, modify, learn, and be creative. While I, and most others here, would find distasteful someone selling a pedal that is nothing more than an obvious copy in an attempt to cash in on a brand name or a pedal's current popularity, if you are open about what you are selling, then go ahead. If you're building someone a pedal from a kit or modifying a pedal for someone, there is nothing wrong with charging them for your time and materials.

Long-winded maybe, but I hope that helps.

[scott1568]

Much thanks to you all for the well thought and written responses. I greatly appreciate the input, I really do. I almost expected to get flamed by at least one or two people out there, but I wanted the opinion of the forum. I am pretty sure I can do this now.  

[MmmPedals]

The design of the circuit is no real problem to remake but the layout is another story. Layout are copyrighted material. If you're gonna sell it redo the layout yourself.

[kungpow79]

My opinion, and I assume you're only making a handful of these, do whatever you want with it.  But I wouldn't call it "Bluesbreaker."  Because its not; its your modded version or whatever version.  You could say, "its based on..."  Thats legit.  Do you know how many people make clones and profit, including boo-teek builders?  Lots.

[analogmike]

This is a recurring discussion on these boards. While it's a horse that's long dead to some, it's not an entirely bad idea to drag it out once in a while.

While it's good that you are concerned about ethical issues in pedal building and selling, take a minute to look at the industry from the larger pedal producers to the kit companies to the boutique brands, even down to component manufacturers.

Look at schematics of pedals from larger companies. Many, if not most, are very similar. The MXR Distortion + and the DOD OD250 are nearly identical, but neither company is suing the other. Boss and Ibanez (and others) both use the same type of flip flop circuitry for switching. There are basic circuits that are building blocks for stompboxes and other devices, and designers from Boss to boutique to DIYer can and do use the same building blocks. Each may tweak a design to produce a certain sound, but the basics remain. You'll find that boutiquers have most often taken an already existing design and modified it to optimize certain characterisitcs. Note the number of Tube Screamer and Fuzz clones that are out there.

There are a few places that sell kits that are nothing more than the parts for you to build a pedal on your own instead of buying one pre-made. None of them seem to be defending themselves in court against Boss or Ibanez or Dunlop.

Another element to look at is the electronic component manufacturers themselves. Find the data sheet for an IC and you might find application notes as well. In these, the manufacturer is showing potential users one or more basic circuits that use their product. There are pedals out there – from big producers to DIYers – that are based on the circuits in the application notes.  One example in the DIY area is the Smash Drive. Take away the tone control and it looks very much like one of the circuits in the application notes on the data sheet.

So, building and modifying stompboxes, and charging people to do that for them isn't where the trouble exists. You will get into trouble when you infringe on someone else's brand name. There is a company that makes clones of the Mosrite Fuzzrite, but they do not hold out the pedal as being an actual Mosrite, they hold it out as a reproduction. They change the name slightly as well to Fuzzbrite. No problem there. However, there have been people who have tried to clone Z.Vex pedals, copy the paint job, and sell them as actual Z.Vex pedals. Bad voodoo there.

Another question deals with doing and selling pedals with well known mods associated with a person or their brand. One example is the Boss DS-1 with Keeley mods. Keeley published the seeing eye and ultra mods, and I have done the mods to a couple of DS-1s and sold them. When I wrote the ad, I stated that the pedal had those two Keeley mods done – done by me, not Keeley. That way there is no mistake about what I was selling.

The point of all this is that fuzz, distortion, overdrive pedals all do three basic things – amplify, clip, and filter. You should feel free to use the tools and information available to build, modify, learn, and be creative. While I, and most others here, would find distasteful someone selling a pedal that is nothing more than an obvious copy in an attempt to cash in on a brand name or a pedal's current popularity, if you are open about what you are selling, then go ahead. If you're building someone a pedal from a kit or modifying a pedal for someone, there is nothing wrong with charging them for your time and materials.

Long-winded maybe, but I hope that helps.

wow you really explained that well. wish there were someone like you on TGP in all thosenever-ending  KLON clone threads...

[soggybag]

I'd say if you are making less than $5000 a year at this I wouldn't bother putting yourself through the ethical dilemma.

If you're making kits and selling them, I think the people selling kits would encourage you. The more kits you make the more kits they sell.

If you are making a clone of something like the TS or something well known, all of that stuff has been cloned so many times you're really not going to be doing anything that hasn't been done before.

[jkokura]

I think perhaps the grey area for me would to be doing something like buying a BYOC kit, building it with your 'brand name' on it, and not giving any credit to the original company who designed the layout and assembled the kit. However, if you made sure to give credit to BYOC or whoever... I'd suggest if you do this then talk to the kit provider to see what they'd like you to do.

However, getting/designing a perf/PCB layout, buying the parts, assembling the circuit, doing the paint and artwork - all of that entitles you to say "I built this pedal, and it's my brand. The original circuit schematic is very rarely protected. The artwork or individual rights of the designer are. If you want to give credit to where it's due I think that's wise and courteous. Some might not agree with this paragraph, but I guess that they're as free to do that as I am.

While I think it's much easier ethically to design your own circuit and try and sell that, I think that's the kind of thing you should do if you want to start a company (like Vex, PaulC,  and others). However, if you have a buddy or a local contact who whats 'blank' pedal and you can build it for him as a one off kinda thing, use the second paragraph method. Don't use a preassembled kit unless you want to label it giving credit to them (eg, BYOC Bluesbreaker by Scott1568 Pedals).

[slacker]

I think perhaps the grey area for me would to be doing something like buying a BYOC kit, building it with your 'brand name' on it ... I'd suggest if you do this then talk to the kit provider to see what they'd like you to do.

That's a good idea I'd guess most PCB and kit suppliers have terms and conditions. General Guitar Gadgets for example actually state that once you've bought from them you can use their PCBs to make pedals to sell for profit, they'll even offer you a discount on bulk buys.
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_profit_statement.pdf.

Most importantly if you've made some nice mod to a pedal share them with us, that way everyone's happy

[boogietube]

I think that if you're just doing a few "one offs" ..who really cares? If you're going to use say Runoffgroove's or GGG or Tonepad's etc designs and get a website and sell kits and market pedals, then you should enter a licensing agreement with said party and adhere to it. I'm actually thinking of something like this, so over the past couple of years I have e-mailed, and read the agreements and will produce pedals and market them (eventually) and give everyone a piece of their pie. As an example, GGG will let you use their designs (not all..some designs are RG'S etc and do not fall in that agreement) , but it's a percentage of the finished pedal, OR buy his boards. From my end in this case, buying boards will be cheaper, and I will be supporting the DIY community that has taught me everything. As far as selling a kit pedal to someone who wants you to build it for them, they have made their slice off of you selling the kit to you. (in my opinion) The gray area would be re-labeling it under your name. Runoffgroove will not let you do this. If one were to produce their circuits, you would have to name the pedal with their name (Thor, English Channel etc..)  of the circuit and supply their web address in the literature or print it on the box. There's more to that agreement, and I can't remember the rest of it.(I won't be producing their designs anyway)  It would be prudent to ask every DIY related maker of kits, boards etc exactly what their requirements would be in order to market their products under your own name. In the case that you make your own boards, I personally have only sold a few pedals this way, and I have made a donation to the sites that I have made pedals from. That reminds me. I have to donate to this site.

[Electron Tornado]

wow you really explained that well. wish there were someone like you on TGP in all thosenever-ending  KLON clone threads...

Thanks for the kudos, analogmike. I don't get over to TGP much, but feel free to quote that post over there if you like.

I think perhaps the grey area for me would to be doing something like buying a BYOC kit, building it with your 'brand name' on it, and not giving any credit to the original company who designed the layout and assembled the kit. However, if you made sure to give credit to BYOC or whoever... I'd suggest if you do this then talk to the kit provider to see what they'd like you to do.

Unless it's an original design by the kit maker, I think they would like for you to buy their kits, and buy lots of them. What's the difference whether you buy parts from different places or all of the parts from one place? As for the PCBs, think of it as having them manufactured by the kit maker, manufactured by yourself, or manufactured by one of the places that advertises their PCB making service.

Pedal Builder: "I'm doing a production run of Big Muff clones."

Kit Company (i.e. "vendor"): "I already make PCBs for that circuit. How many do you need? By the way, I can also sell you the rest of the parts."

If the price is right, they both win.

[PRR]

> I built him a modified Blues Breaker
> ...engineer called me up, told me he wanted one and another local guitarist would too.

He can run to Banjo World and BUY a brand-new warrantied BB2 for $90. The older model can be found on Craigs or eBay for about twice that much.

WHY does he want to fool-around with some guy who may take a deposit and run off to outer Mongolia?

Yeah, maybe you are charging too little. Still, a studio engineer typically wants something KNOWN, which WILL work day after day, rather than a home-brew.

Evidently, something about your build, your mods, your karma, your knobs impressed him.

It seems fully moral to charge for "what you done good".

> it takes time to finish a product and that time is worth money.

Dammrite. And don't shortchange yourself. One pedal is fun, but after a dozen it is about as exciting as flipping burgers, and less secure. Be sure you pay your workers (yourself) more than a token wage.

You can't charge for basic design; but neither does Marshall. When they make a million pedals, the small fee they may pay a designer comes to about a penny a unit. Anyway as ET points out, there's nothing really new in audio, everything has been done in 987 variations. For any specific chore, the same 2 or 3 solutions keep coming up. Maybe MXR uses 68K, DOD uses 82K, and you use 56K... this is tuning, not fundamental design.

Most people don't look past the case. Obviously you won't exact-copy any $69 pedal case, or you couldn't sell them on the street for even $39, and you'd be drilling/soldering for free. You'll use your own taste and style and graphics.

The guy down the street sells hand-made chairs. He didn't invent the chair. I can buy "similar" chairs (4 legs, seat, back) anywhere for $29-$99. He gets $400 for a chair, because he builds his chairs VERY nice, and a few people appreciate the difference.

Some of his chairs are near-exact copies of Hepplewhite's chairs. But Hepplewhite sold thousands of chairs; he's not going to rise from his grave and smite some guy who sells maybe a dozen chairs a year; neither is Marshall, not until you get a lot more notorious.