Sax Effect Distortion or Fuzz

[Mark Hammer]

Nothing magical about the Anderton project....and no layout either.  Just a bunch of garden variety op-amps and standard-topography bandpass filters.

Think of it as a "frozen vocoder".

[jimbeaux]

I built the "Peakmaker" & have a layout - it requires a 9 volt bipolar power & my layout wasn't made for a stomp box enclosure (but it could be shrunk down quite a bit & could probably be made to fit).
It uses 2 LM4136's & a TL071.

I'll start a new topic with pics this evening.

[Strategy]

Thanks for this tip and the layout jimbeaux and mark. look forward to checking that out!

- Strategy

[bluehevy75]

Wow!!! Thanks a lot. I've got some work I'm looking forward to doing.

QUESTIONS:
1.   How does using a mixer help?
2.    How do I go about making a momentary switch? Links?
3.   What is a sustained fundamental? Why does it matter for pedals.
4.   Are there projects/kits that utilize heavily gated, enveloped, and (or) octave down fuzzes?

RESPONSES:
1.   I looked up the Conn Multivider( http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/conn/multivider). The pickup we are using is identical to the one bottom of the picture.
2.   We are going to use the pickup for now (instead of the mic) because we get better response across the frequency range, less feed-back, and less ambient noise (sometimes we are loud). Though I appreciate the SM57 suggestion.
3.   Eddie Harris used the Maestro pickup. It looks a lot like the Conn. http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/maestro/w2
4.   The amp has a feedback eliminator on it. I don't know if a pedal/rack mounted version will help.

TO DO LIST FOR ME:
1.   Research the following stuff:
a.   Octavia and Green Ringer kits from GGG.
b.   Heavily gated fuzzes.
c.   Synth filters and the gristliezer.
d.   Fuzz pedal with an envelope.
e.   Octave down stuff.
f.   "Triple" Fuzzes
g.   MXR Blue Box
h.   Square Waves/Wave Shaper
i.   Feedback eliminator.

Thanks again. I'll do some research and let you all know how it goes.
--KH

[Mark Hammer]

I built the "Peakmaker" & have a layout - it requires a 9 volt bipolar power & my layout wasn't made for a stomp box enclosure (but it could be shrunk down quite a bit & could probably be made to fit).
It uses 2 LM4136's & a TL071.

I'll start a new topic with pics this evening.

Thanks!  My guess is that the Peakmaker could be adapted to a simple +9v w/Vref supply.

[Strategy]

With all this talk about 1970s "effected horn" records I went to the record store on my lunch break. I didn't find any Eddie Harris, but I did find Bob James "3" - we'll see if it yields any effected-out-horns funky fusion sounds!

- Strategy

[tomtom]

 I work with a sax player lately and he uses a lot of effects.

You need a mixer of some kind to boost the signal to stompboxes levels (well, at least adapt both levels and impedance)
and for sure a gate on fuzzes to avoid feedback and improve note separation. The funny thing is with such sustaining
notes FX will react in a different way than a guitar

A whammy 1 is a must.

You could use a mic installed in the mouthpiece too, it will not feedback as much.

[bluehevy75]

I work with a sax player lately and he uses a lot of effects.

You need a mixer of some kind to boost the signal to stompboxes levels (well, at least adapt both levels and impedance)
and for sure a gate on fuzzes to avoid feedback and improve note separation. The funny thing is with such sustaining
notes FX will react in a different way than a guitar

A whammy 1 is a must.

You could use a mic installed in the mouthpiece too, it will not feedback as much.

My sax player will love the Whammy 1. Any real difference vintage vs. new model? We will play around with the mixer on practice Thursday. We have a "pickup" installed in the mouthpiece. Not a proper mic. What kind of mics would fit in the mouthpiece?

[tomtom]

 The WH1 sounds way better and got a better tracking, but it's getting old and need some repairs now and then (at least if you use it on stage)
Maybe a good choice would be to find a wh1 for the studio work and use the last one for gigs (I'm trying to repair it as  I speak).

I don't know a lot about the mouthpiece pickup, it could be some kind of piezo but it works nicely, it's made by a shop in Paris, I will try to
find more infos about it

You could try :

Reverb (infinite ones are nice)
Delay
Gated fuzz
Wha
Whammy
Filter

Octaver might work but the tracking might be an issue, the whammy does the trick nicely without
having to find a sweet spot volume wise.

From there you have to experiment, it'a a different texture than the guitar so it's a bit hit or miss

[bluehevy75]

This post may be large but I don't know how else to say everything. Some things are working and some aren't. Maybe I'm in over my head. Below I'll try to clarify a little. We tried a lot of things at practice last night. We had some successes but we are continuing to have issues with distortion and fuzz.

MORE BACKGROUND:
   I'm in a band that is trying to create music in the spirit of Morphine. Dana Colley the sax player from Morphine is our current inspiration. He ran some effects in Morphine and is running a lot more effects in his current band A.K.A.C.O.D. I'm fairly confident he is using some kind of mic/pickup running directly out of his mouthpiece for his wet sound.
pics: http://liveon35mm.wordpress.com/2009/07/14/members-of-morphine/

He also has a pretty extensive pedal board
pic: http://www.akacod.com/sounds.html

Samples of some of his more current sounds (with effects) can be found on the current A.K.A.C.O.D. album "Hapiness" Songs are below. I'm sure you can find them online:
   "Spanish Fly" Sax Solos start at 3:50
   "Bad Weather" Sax Solo 2:45-3:55

I'd be interested to know how he gets that sound.

SUCESSES (you won't be surprised):
Here's what is working so far....
1. Reverb sounds great...
2. Delay sounds great (running two delays at the same time sounds very cool...)
3. Tremolo...awesome...
4. Flange...awesome...
5. Micro Pog..sounded just like you thought it would...Octave Down Sounds better than Octave Up but both work.

Almost Successes
1. Q-Tron...it was working but had a really harsh tone...it didn't sound very "musical"...

NOT SUCCESSFUL
I tried a few of your ideas regarding fuzz/distortion last night at practice and no dice. What was the most interesting is we had some of the fuzz/distortion pedals roaring. We could get plenty of effect (and some feedback) when our sax player wasn't playing. When he would play, the distortion and feedback would stop although the tone of the sax was altered a little. Mostly, it sounded like his clean tone was just "hotter" but it really wasn't "dirty" or "distorted" It was very strange...it's like the fuzz wouldn't "stick" or effect the signal when the sax tone was coming through.

Mixer->Fuzz=No Dice
Pog Octave Up -> Fuzz = No Dice
Pog Octave Down -> Fuzz=No Dice
GGG late 60's Botique Fuzz, tried all settings, adjusted the trim pot=No Dice

The only way we got any kind of dirt was by clipping the mixer. I have not tried a gated fuzz but somehow I'm not convinced it will work. I'm afraid to buy one until I know more. I Somehow I feel that there is something about the sax signal that makes it not work with fuzz/distortion. WHAT AM I MISSING?

[Mark Hammer]

Keep in mind that guitar players have traditionally used fuzz to make the guitar sound more like a tenor sax.  No great surprise then that adding fuzz to a sax doesn't get you a whole lot more than what you started out with!

[bluehevy75]

Keep in mind that guitar players have traditionally used fuzz to make the guitar sound more like a tenor sax.  No great surprise then that adding fuzz to a sax doesn't get you a whole lot more than what you started out with!

great point...I didn't know that....

...maybe I was wrong about what I was hearing and looking for...listen to the clips below and tell me what you think...the sax player is Dana Colley from Morphine

Samples of some of his more current sounds (with effects) can be found on the current A.K.A.C.O.D. album "Hapiness" Songs are below. I'm sure you can find them online:
   "Spanish Fly" Sax Solos start at 3:50
   "Bad Weather" Sax Solo 2:45-3:55

I'd be interested to know how he gets that sound.

[bluehevy75]

Maybe with these pics you can help give me some ideas....

[bluehevy75]

Apparently I don't know how to post pics....

Have a good weekend...

[isildur100]

Went on youtube and found a live version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWsthjWlFvU&feature=related

The guy seems to use a wah wah in there too. The wah shapes the tone and when kept in the lower position it lessens the chance of feedback. Anyways, it sounds quite extreme!  


edit: just saw that you guys had mentioned a wah...

John

[tomtom]

Well, i was surprise at first when we tried Fuzz/distortion because the attack or onset of the sax is pretty different from a guitar or bass
and somehow heavier distortion didn't mean heavier saturation. The harmonic content of the sax seems pretty complex already so you have
to saturate a lot to hear something but by then feedback and noise is a concern. A mouthpiece pickup is the first thing you need because
it got more fundamental, it's more precise and it feedback less but when you reach the saturation level you need, you will need a gating
action both for noise when you don't play and for articulation because it will create a more percussive sound i.e. more attack.

We worked almost a year to buid some kind of mixer for the system and it was a pain. You need to find a way to blend mouthpiece pickup
and classic pickup at least be able to select a mouthpiece pickup for distortion then bring the level to stompboxes level (blending is nice too)
then bring it back to line level.

If you don't have enough levels, you won't be able to trig filter and octavers correctly and you won't exctract the gain you need from distortions.
Think about impedance too, because once you work with line levels you could forget about classic fuzzes, at least most of them;

BTW, I love Morphine, listen to them almost everyday.

The Sax is Guillaume perret, the band Electric Epic :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tY_Oas_6lg&feature=player_embedded#

[joegagan]

the guy with charlie hunter on this video got an amazing sound for a sax. check out the fills at the 1:00 mark, and then in his solo around 4:30.
i also think he was screaming through the sax later in the solo.

hunter is pretty damn cool on this song as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmUeZkr9H4k

[alex frias]

Try an octave down pedal, like BOSS OC-2/3 or Mini POG set for full direct sound plus a 12 o'clock position of octave down sound, put it before an analog octave up pedal, a Octavio/a version, with low gain/boost. On guitar it gives some kind of "Clavinet" flavour. On the voice it is very interesting annd hard to describe.

I think some Ring Modulation could be great...

[bluehevy75]

I've been doing some more research. Is it possible that impedance is an issue? The average guitar pickup is somewhere in-between 4K and 20K ohms (correct me if I'm wrong). But the sax pickup we are using is something like 125 ohms. Maybe this is having an effect on how the pedals are triggered?

[bluehevy75]

the guy with charlie hunter on this video got an amazing sound for a sax. check out the fills at the 1:00 mark, and then in his solo around 4:30.
i also think he was screaming through the sax later in the solo.

hunter is pretty damn cool on this song as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmUeZkr9H4k

This is way cool thanks...