Sax Effect Distortion or Fuzz

[bluehevy75]

Hello,

This is my first posting though I have used DIYSB in the past. I have made a few pedals (fuzz, boost, a/b switches, effects loop, etc...) but would not consider my knowledge of the subject great--I know there are some gifted people on this site. I have a strange question that I will try to make as clear as possible. I'm trying to create a set of pedals for the sax player in my band.

THE QUESTION: What kind of of fuzz or distortion would work well with alto sax without feeding back?

THE PROBLEM: In order to get a distorted sound from the sax signal we have to turn the pedal (we've tried a couple--see below) up so much that the sax feeds-back.

OTHER INFO:
1. We have tried cheap distortion/fuzz pedals (DOD, homemade stuff, etc...) so far because we are still experimenting.
2. We have tried it with the Boss noise gate and noise suppressor.
3. We are using a Telex Telethin Earpiece (125 ohm) to get amplify the sax we call it a pickup. The "pickup" is screwed into the mouthpiece and is nearly identical to the Maestro "pickups" from the late 60's. Ed Harris used to play on one.
4. The sax signal is going into a guitar amp.
5. Currently, we are having great success with delay, wah, and flanged effects....

I would be open to making a pedal (I've made fuzz and boost pedals) or modifying a pedal for this but don't really know where to begin to fix the problem. I don't know if the problem can be fixed.

Thanks in advance for your help.
--Kevin

[joegagan]

not familiar with the pickup you refer to. i would suggest using an sm57 ( small field will help ) mic into some sort of mixer, line out of the mixer to the fuzzbox, see if that gets you a better volume to feedback ratio. if you get a better ratio, but still want more, you probably will need to begin to precisely eq certain freq's to weed out feedback.

the advantage to a mixer is you can do a mix of clean to fuzzed, which might be essential to getting enough stage volume.

[Processaurus]

Maybe a gated, splatty kind of fuzz, like the Big Cheese or Woolly Mammoth might be able to work.

Worse comes to worse, you could adapt any distortion pedal to have a momentary switch, that is normally off, that mutes it when it isn't being pressed down, like a CB radio.

[BAARON]

Yeah, it's certainly not the SAXOPHONE feeding back, it's the microphone and PA system.  With the compression of something like a fuzz, you're taking all the tiny little sounds that normally wouldn't be loud enough to cause microphonic feedback and amplifying them to a wild level, which means that if anything is loud enough to cause feedback, EVERYTHING will be loud enough to cause feedback.  If you really have your heart set on running a saxophone through a fuzz, you might have to isolate the sax player from the PA system/monitors so the microphone won't pick them up.

[Strategy]

reed instruments are already pretty fuzzy and fat 'waveforms' if you will, on their own, with all kinds of distortion available just from embouchure (sp?) and the reed. Skroooonk! Filtering and modulation can be potentially just as crazy will being subtractive rather than distortion...A wide ranging wah, resonant synth filter, or other effect will be great for you, providing tone shaping without causing feedback...

Have you checked out gristleizer? search for it on this forum...

- Strategy

[John Lyons]

I think the reed/mouthpiece is the way to go for live use. Assuming the mic
is somewhat far from the amp. Several feet at least. You don't need a lot of gain.
Something without a lot of compression would seem to work well.
The sustain of the sax is enough, you probably just want to add some
chunky distortion right? So something without a ton of sustain would
seem to be best. Maybe even something with an envelope that opens
and closes smoothly would be good for cutting down on feedback.
SO an envelope fileter minus the filter and adding a fuzz.
Bass Fuzz ish should sound cool.

You're on the right course thinking about Eddy Harris. What about looking into
the gear he used?

Yeah, maybe the Gristlizer would be one to check out.

[joegagan]

hey, what about a simple boss oc2, run the fuzz on the octave down, could be lots of fun and might solve the feedback problem.

[Processaurus]

A wave wrapping (rather than clipping) effect might work, such as an octavia effect like the green ringer, as it sounds like distortion but there is no high gain happening.  An alternative type is a frequency tripler effect, like Tim Escobedo's "Triple Fuzz", or Zvex Machine.

[John Lyons]

Yeah, that does sound like a way to go. Get some harmonic/octave action going on there.
Like Joe mentions as well. With the octave up is will bet note together and create some
harmonics much like distortion but without the compression or feedback causing gain.
Although the feedabck iwill  directly related to the resonanct frequency of the mic and
the acoustic suroundings and proximity to the amp/PA etc.

On a different path but similar theme
As a simple route, maybe even a slightly misbiased fuzz the gates
when you fall below a certain threshold, variable would be best to
tune it in. Depends on the style of music and dynamics as well though.

[Mark Hammer]

Back in the day, the Conn Multi-Vider ruled the reeds.  You saw ads for them in Downbeat all the time, and the horn players in the Mothers of Invention used them.

Seems to me that a Blue Box is likely the way to go since it has both the lower octaves available as well as the fuzz you seem to want.  Moreover, reed instruments offer that holiest of grails for octave dividers: a sustained fundamental.

It may be that the envelope control of the BB needs some tweaking, but the basic device seems appropriate.

[jimbeaux]

Thanks Mark - I've been racking my brain trying to remember what this effect was called and who made it.

I heard one used by an alto sax player in a jazz ensemble back in 1970 & was very impressed.

Tracking was perfect !

[John Lyons]

Yeah, I could not remember the name either...Conn!

[Renegadrian]

I misread, I thought it was
Sex Effect Distortion or Fuzz

[jimbeaux]

As far as the feedback problem - have you tried a  "feedback eliminator"? Behringer makes quite a few of these in a range of prices.

A waveshaper might be useful with a sax.

http://folkurban.com/Site/SimpleSquareWaveShaperMadeSimpler-712.html

[Strategy]

There was also a Maestro reed/winds FX unit, of course- just the kind of thing they would make- I can't remember the name but it should be on DiscoFreq Effects Database. Its in the same 'era' as the Rhythm n' Sound, Universal Sound Synthesizer, etc. IIRC it is like the Conn with EQ/filter aspects to it available as presets on organ-tab-like rocker switches.

- Strategy

[John Lyons]

There was also a Maestro reed/winds FX unit, of course- just the kind of thing they would make- I can't remember the name but it should be on DiscoFreq Effects Database. Its in the same 'era' as the Rhythm n' Sound, Universal Sound Synthesizer, etc. IIRC it is like the Conn with EQ/filter aspects to it available as presets on organ-tab-like rocker switches.

- Strategy

I think Eddy harris used that too If I'm not mistaken.

[Mark Hammer]

http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/conn/multivider

These were generally devices worn with a belt clip so that the player could access them easily.  I guess nobody thought that horn players might ever use a pedalboard.

There WAS also a Maestro unit, as noted, and I think some may have used it, but the unit was a floor-based device, not something you could clip to your belt.

Then there is stuff like this thing: http://www.effectsdatabase.com/model/maestro/frb1  Not an octave divider as such, but has switch-selectable bandpass filters for instant flick-o-the-finger revoicings.

[Strategy]

Neat, effectsdatabase logs 3 "Sound Systems for Woodwinds" products! W-1, W-2, W-3.

I love the 1970s era of electric jazz where every player has pedals on everything...all the post Miles Davis music...ECM label...CTI label...I play rhodes/organ/synth in a heavy improvising band, I wouldn't call it throwback fusion, but inspired from this era. We haven't found any horn players in our community here who will really "go all the way" with pedals and electronics unfortunately.

"pedals that sound good with instruments other than guitar" is a whole thread/subforum waiting to happen I think...

- Strategy

[Mark Hammer]

The W-1/2/3 are essentially more complex versions of the FRB-1.  In many respects these are all slight variations of what was common in home organ technology, and 1st generation all-in-one synths, at the time: a simple filter labelled with an "instrument" equivalent, based on the bandwidth covered and resonances.

I don't want to convey that these were corny or 3rd rate features.  When combined with suitable envelope changes, they turned out reasonable approximations of instruments in the days before sampling and more complex digital modelling.

I might point out as a sidenote that Craig Anderton had a circuit in Electronic Musician about 24 or 25 years ago which used the same approach to "model" different pickups.  The signal was split amongst ten bandpass filters, which the user could select for mixing with either a dipswitch or toggles if they chose.  A broad-band highpass filter and some inverted-and-unaltered clean tone could also be blended in at a mixing stage.  The intended end-result was different pickup sounds.

[Strategy]

The W-1/2/3 are essentially more complex versions of the FRB-1.  In many respects these are all slight variations of what was common in home organ technology, and 1st generation all-in-one synths, at the time: a simple filter labelled with an "instrument" equivalent, based on the bandwidth covered and resonances. I don't want to convey that these were corny or 3rd rate features.  When combined with suitable envelope changes, they turned out reasonable approximations of instruments in the days before sampling and more complex digital modelling. I might point out as a sidenote that Craig Anderton had a circuit in Electronic Musician about 24 or 25 years ago which used the same approach to "model" different pickups.  The signal was split amongst ten bandpass filters, which the user could select for mixing with either a dipswitch or toggles if they chose.  A broad-band highpass filter and some inverted-and-unaltered clean tone could also be blended in at a mixing stage.  The intended end-result was different pickup sounds.

Fixed filters are very powerful and I'm surprised to some extent that in the pedal scene there aren't pedal projects that have appeared in this type of effect- the fixed filters we have here don't much go beyond the graphic and parametric EQ projects. You mention the "modelling" effect these can give; Its really fun to play with. There is a recent project issued by Juergen Haible (more info available on the electro-music.com forum) which is the fixed filter section of the Polymoog- With it you can very carefully model brass and string section type sounds. Other than the fact that it requires mains power and a transformer, it would make a killer pedal for "voicings" effects like this - a resonant EQ, essentially.

It would be great to see a 'fixed filterbank with resonance' project appear on this forum available to the 9/12 volters among us...The Anderton project might be a good one to dig up provided that there aren't ancient obsolete parts specced in it, etc.

I was given an ancient Krohn-Hite tube bandpass filter by a friend who goes to HAM radio hobby fairs. The thing sounds absolutely incredible on guitar, organ, wurlitzer electric piano, etc....as a stationary filter for voicing effects plus tube sound.

- Strategy

- Strategy