diy sustainer pickup conversion

[Taylor]

Gurner, if you are fully capable of designing a more sophisticated circuit, and you are offended that no one has given a concise explanation with a ready-to-solder schematic and all the info in one succinct post or PDF, then why don't you do that? We'd all love to see it.

I have put together such projects several times now, with the Gristleizer, Tap Tempo Tremolo, Echo Base, and some other projects I'll be releasing soon. It's certainly helpful to condense the info from a huge thread (like the Echo Base thread) into a single file. It's not helpful to complain that someone you don't know hasn't given you the info you want. So (and this goes for all of life), instead of complaining that things aren't the way you'd like, get to work making it happen. 

[psw]

Thanks Taylor...

There are numerous threads...see banika's DIY Layout Creator project site for instance where he built this thing...with pics...or below...or on numerous forums where this subject appears and people successfully make the things...or infact blogs that are popular now...a lot of my design has been replicated...

@fpaul

If something requires breadboarding to tweek I can handle that but after reading a few hundred posts I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions,

You have seen the pictorial of how to wind a driver?
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211

There are countless examples of others by many people. For that one you can hear on the clip as it happens I used the plastic from a folder, some PVC tape and some 3mm ordinary steel from the hardware store for the core...I used PVA glue to wind pot it and the pickups magnet. 0.2mm wire wound to 8 ohms. In the tele one I used small ceramic "dime store" craft magnets.

It is amazing how many people are at  home putting electronic components on a board to a given design, but fail at the arts and craft side of things. If it went "crazy" it almost always comes back to a poor driver. If it isn't potted absolutely, the internal windings will vibrate for instance. Also, installation is critical, you can't have any pickup other than the bridge pickup in circuit (hot or grounded) for it not to have a transformer effect on nearby coils...most of the 300 pages are in fact about finding the problems like this and discovering invariably that the driver was at fault.

I can't know without details what 'went wrong'...but it sounds like you need me to tell you where to locate plastic around your house for instance...perhaps this kind of project is not for you...it is certainly not "pre-packages and a...well, if i just put these components together like lego...I will get a fuzz box kind of thing...it does take some lateral thinking and ingenuity. No point blaming a proven project till all possible reasons for failure have been eliminated.

A story that I always liked from "dick Smith" who sold lots of electronics and kits in the 70's...a guy bought an expensive amp kit, built it perfectly...but it didn't work...he sent pictures and it was built immaculately...eventually the guy brought it in to Dick himself...the entire thing was put together with epoxy glue...customer thought with such an expensive thing, this would be even better and stronger than solder. (oddly enough you see this all the time with drivers...wood glue, i don't think so...but it is a complete misunderstanding to say use super glue or none at all)

@DougH

I think it would be best if all involved killed the personal attacks. This is not one of those forums where we do that kind of stuff. We are friendly and helpful here. Don't bring this place down to the standard of other music-related fora.

Unfortunately...continues to attack while not coming out and simply saying that he came here less than a month ago to attack me and to pick the brains of prominent members about such things as "phase correction" refusing to tell in his own there what would appear to be a sustainer circuit project...presumably because he seeks to appear as all his own work that he also claims perfectly capable of doing himself...but of course in these threads..."I can't find a 9v op-amp" and I'm just a "hobbiest, not a designer" belie.

Why does Gurner not just come out and say he seeks to build a better sustainer circuit and be done with it...why does he need a recommendation from someone he has such vitriol and obsession with "beating" as me? Why must I spoon feed a 'troll' with details of what I have done if he is, as he claims on this thread, but not on the others in this forum, that he knows what he is doing?

Because, he sees the popularity of the project, and sees himself as a "king"...and to be a king, you need to create one to depose...in this case me...mock and recruit allies with logical fallacies, and then...miraculously appear with the "ultimate design"...saving the day and elevating him to the status he sees me (ironically only attracting more trolls much like himself in the process).

...

Speaking of bass sustainers- we are going to give the one I'm building a try on my son's bass.

See the post on previous page regarding bass sustainers and other information...the driver and circuit types I have used work in the guitar range, I personally have achieved sustain and harmonics with this set up on a bass...but it is not designed to work on fundamentals in this range as is. You are then likely to do a fair bit of work to tweak the amp response to handle such low frequencies effectively and the driver itself may need a lower resonant frequency to be efficient at those frequencies.

As before, don't judge the sustainer I describe for guitar, if it does not work as you envisage on bass. It is of course possible to do. However, I kind of think that for best results, given the string spacing...a driver for each string might be more effective...maybe even a small stereo amplifier...just thinking off the top of my head of course.

It would be good to see, except my own fledgling attempts, no one else, so far, has really taken a bass sustainer on in earnest...

...of course there's more...

[psw]

And finally...at @Gurner...

This was my whole point (which seems to have been missed)....anyone who needs guidance on a sustainer circuit  (& for what's it's worth I definitely don't) are simply going to be dumbfounded by the sheer volume of text & words  wherever they look for DIY sustainer guidance!

Are you seeing $$ signs or something? Why are you being so elusive if your reason here is to make a sustainer circuit? If you are so at home with designing circuits and such, why are you picking minds here on phase correction without at least saying what it is you wnat to correct for? If so adept, why are you not capable of finding your own op-amp, or seting up a voltage divider to drive any number of the things? Why is such a 'happy_chap' so fast to remove his own email from this forum? Don't worry, I certainly wasn't going to contact you to get abuse, but perhaps others might to help you in this endeavour that you claim here, but deny in other threads, you are perfectly capable of doing.

If so capable...why no circuit and driver design...

Lets not forget the Driver. Notice how Gurner (and a fallacy of many others) keeps accentuating the circuit. See how he mocks me with type face and words of distain..."my first circuit"...cute, but no dice.

For instance, the reason that you need phase compensation is because you need to compenstate for the electromagnetic qualities of the coil, which alters with frequency. There is plenty in the sustainer patents on this...check out the Floyd Rose Patent for a good introduction to this concept and how he achieved it.

But..the important thing in designing such a thing is that you are compensating for a particular driver specification and quality. Now...have you in fact made your own driver, or like many others taken the heart of my system, my driver, and designing you circuit to suit it. If you think that any coil of wire and magnets will work, you are sadly mistaken.

This "driver" is the critical component in this system, and if needing phase correction, will require it to be tailored for those specific qualities. Do you have the inductance meters and spectrum analyzers to know the resonsnaces and inductances with frequency of mine or any given driver...I don't. If you have, you admit a poor grasp of the maths, so how are you going to be able to interpret it?

I acknowledge that this is not my strong point. But I have gone further, I can't control everyone else's driver qualities, I work with in a range and tried to develop a "design", that you seem to belittle (so you better not simply copy the concept), that would work in the range required without this requirement. It looks completely different and has completely different from any other driver design before...a radical departure. Now, it's simple sure, but it isn't just "any coil of wire" otherwise countless others would have been successful before me and since and they simply haven't...

I claim my design will work effectively with simple amplification...I have provided clips and had it verified successfully over and again. You seem to have completely ignored that.

On Project Guitar there's a thread spanning back almost 7 years - & whilst there are a few tutorials wrt making drivers (a simple device - a bobbin with some wire around it & a magnet attached!), the reader is pretty much on his own wrt the accompanying circuit (I emphasise, this is after 7 years - no recommended circuit!).

No...you are misleading again, and I think you know it! GalagaMike in this tutorial put forward the RoG Fetzer/Ruby design, and may I add with permission and collaboration apparently with RoG. I say, you need a small amplifier and he goes out and gets one...didn't ask me, jst found one. I say that you know it, because, in a special twist, you attribute this to me. Unfortunately for that tutorial, he went through no peer review or consultation and very much wanted to be the first person to make a "tutorial" in the reference section on the sustainer...so a bit of ego there...but not mine!

And it worked, in a fashion. He did fail on several critical driver aspects. He did not use a proper magnet, he used recovered big overly strong Neodymium magnets from disk drives...and stuck them on the end of a stainless steel core. Well, that's a bad plan...then he used a different wire gauge, creating a coil with a different resonant frequency. The result was that he struggle to get the high strings sustaining...well, surprise surprise. But, what it wasn't was this circuit...which was not "ripped off" but offered up by RoG apparently.

So...two points, one THE DRIVER IS A CRITICAL COMPONENT and in fact a part of the circuit. If attempting to design a circuit, ANY CIRCUIT MUST BE DESIGNED AROUND THIS CRITICAL COMPONENT.

So, anyone who knows anything about sustainers knows that the secret to success is in the driver and that the circuit can be refined in many ways, but it must be designed for a specific driver design.

I sense a strategy that I has seen before...oh, lets make out that anything will work...then come up with something remarkabley similar to what pete's been doing for years, then hoodwink them into thinking that my "magic circuit" is the secret and the driver is immaterial.

Well...it isn't, it's critical. You may say, well...it's so simple, anyone could have come up with that...so it doesn't matter! Well it does on so many levels...one they didn't. The eBow is very simple too...is it ok to rip them off because their idea is so elegantly simple...and call it our own by belittling the concept even as you repeat it? No...of course not...but I sense that is where you are headed...but then, you are an elusive fellow aren't you Gurner, don't want even on this thread to tell us what it is you came here for...besides pissing on me. If you are making a sustainer circuit, why not just discuss it openly.

Anyone here with any real knowledge...a guy like R.G. for instance who knows quite a lot about transformer design as I am led to believe...would need to know the qualities of the coil to help you with phase correction. You started a thread, attracted an expert...yet you just simply couldn't tell even him what it was you were trying to acheive. Here of course you are perfectly capable of working this stuff out...without me around it's...oh please, I can't find me a 9v op-amp...can yuou find if for me...come on...wheres the spoon gurner...

Oh yes...you asked for AN amp...I gave you one...ever since you have suggested I ripped of RoG (members here of course) and recommend it for you...but I absolutely did not. I heard a crying child and attempted to pacify it...but you spat the dummy, cause you want to continue your tantrum.

I try and explain some simple facts and truths to you...but you are still flailing about and not paying attention.

The only reason you want to build a sustainer circuit it would seem, is not because you want to build a sustainer, better or otherwise, is because you seek to put yourself forward as addressing a need (that's the charitable reading mind)...perhaps make some $$...and otherwise grab attention that you don't think I deserve. However, if your prime motive was to actually build a sustainer...you would have done it now before knocking me and every other person of dozens, several who are members here...who have successfully built such a thing!!!!

Well...do the eBow guys not deserve admiration...they simply used a coil and an LM386 amp. But...news gurner...it isn't just any coil...there is a metal shield around both coils in it, the spacing is important and they designed said coils to work with a simple circuit...EXACTLY what I did too! Lets all mock and belittle the Ebow shall we for Gurner's sake....

...

So...You have the ability to make an original idea for a driver...or are you simply going to start out like so many others "ripping off mine"? And when you have done this, you are going to make it available freely for all to see and use as they wish...perhaps make it even "betterer"...work it so that it works in the way they would like it to sound? Not try and use the 'sustainer audience' to profit from such a thing and feed you fragile ego? I mean, if you are working on a sustainer, it isn't absolutely clear, you would say so right...apparently not!

Have you even seen sustainer regular Col's dual coil drivers (which like mine don't require phase correction which seems to bother you with your driver)? Have you not done enough research to see the numoerous circuits including this one of his...have you ead the convincing arguments for feed forward AGC control for sustainer circuits?

Here's a clue then...oh no, now I ahve to go and do the work again...



This is one from CurtisA...AGC and all...I'm sure if you are as clued up as you make out, you will understand it, or be able to go and see his description in the thread...hmmm...for something more complete...



The Above is cols forward feed design that he has used with some success as I say, freely posted with a complete layout...tested, but like all good designers, seeking more, changing drivers, and moving on...Note, his rights are reserved...I suspect if I recommended a circuit to you, those rights may not be respected.

Now...how is it that I could get that out of google and you couldn't? You have typed sustainer into it haven't you...sustainer circuit perhaps?

Sheeesh...it certainly does sound feel like spoon feeding to me...you are familiar with google...then surely you know about these circuits from the PG sustainer collective?

Come on...there are lots of designs, are you seriously telling me that you are capable of designing the type of circuit shown above, plus a layout, and design your own driver design, and post sound clips of the thing actually working as Col did years back now (2007 or earlier) when you are not apparently able to do enough basic search using google to find the things, even when I earlier told you directly in this very thread, that such things existed.

The difference is that Col, actually built one...we disagree on quite a few things me and Col...we have different criteria on performance and utility...but instead of just pissing on me, or ripping off my ideas...or even taking the patents stuff at face value or as necessary (which I gather is where your phase correction stuff comes from)...he took what I started, discussed openly about some ideas, put them into practice, and came up with this, built it, tested it...here it is again 3-4 years later...

For the sake of others, this circuit provides sophisticated forward feed AGC and has 4 modes of operation aimed at a lot of control and evenness and strong fundamentals and using filters for harmoinc and response effects.

Now...am I recommending it...no, I have not built it...I was not sure that it was the kind of sound I desired anyway...and as far as I know, it has been freely available to use for 3-4 years and only Col has built it. However, it sounds exactly what Gurner is after...so a bit of reinventing of the wheel don't you think...but hang on, we don't know what the driver Gurner is proposing..well, even that's presumptuous, because he has yet to confirm that this is in fact his "widget" that he needs phase correction for.

No...again, straight into the mis-information, mis-guided no experience attacks on me. I am not the "King of sustainers"...lets hand it to Col, or Curtis, or Tim...or the very many who have made great strides in the sustainer project with cooperation instead of confrontation and abuse. Lets here if for the people who have the courage of conviction to use their real names and say exactly what they are doing, who discuss things openly, show their work, their successes and their failures along the way...and in the end, and ongoing come up with things like the above too...just as a sample.

But...noooooooo...Gurner knows better I'm sure...doesn't need help from anyone here, wont be turning up at PG trying to seel his wares...I'm sure that all he really wants to do is build a sustainer for himself...or a widget...and it's as innocent as that. The pursuit of me and the project and the work of myself and those more knowledgable than me by inference...that's just an amusing hobby for mr Happy_Chap form the Uk...oops, sorry...now you don't want your email address known either...only because someone suggested you take your pissing match with me off the public arena!

You may mock my length of posts, you may really hate me for some reason...I can't diagnose your obsession from here...but really, you are hardly showing any credibility at all...secretive to not even disclose what you are seeking to do...widget...while seeking help here for said widget...that you continually protest that you don't need help with said widget...while asking for the most basic researching questions and thinking that phase is the first priority...though you don't seem to have the driver to measure and analyze to even woirk out what "phase correction" would be necessary. And by far the most of your limited posts have been right here, hijacking a thread based on my work...to push your own, undisclosed but transparent...agenda.

There are plenty of circuits available...if you don't like my simple eBow inspired solution working up a driver that will work with a simple circuit of a huge range of which many have been presented...and none of mine ripped off mind. Then perhaps something like Col's is more your cup of tea...it sounds like that's exactly what you are after. It's open for use (though not commercially, so watch out...no ripping off now) and proven to work. However, despite it being around and even further refined...I'll let you do the research on the schematics and variations shall i?...as far as I am aware, no one but col has built the thing.

While you are at it, you might want to look at how he went about it...and it didn't include pissing on me, but doing some original and hard work...on the driver, and the circuit.

Had enough yet...do I need to keep feeding you still...still worried I won't show you mine when I will show you far more sophisticated solutions that seem to exceed your aims?

[fpaul]

I can't know without details what 'went wrong'...but it sounds like you need me to tell you where to locate plastic around your house for instance...perhaps this kind of project is not for you...it is certainly not "pre-packages and a...well, if i just put these components together like lego...I will get a fuzz box kind of thing...it does take some lateral thinking and ingenuity. No point blaming a proven project till all possible reasons for failure have been eliminated.

Nothing went "wrong", I just didn't have the patience to wade thru your incredibly verbose and self agrandizing posts to pick out the necessary info.  I've never made an attempt to build one. Your reply to me was a perfect example as you seem to be insulting my intelligence.  I'm sure I "could" do it but frankly a sustainer hasn't been at the top of my list of desires anyway.  I was trying to give some constructive input and even thanked you for posting the info.  Jeezz.  I'm done with this thread as I really wasn't trying to get into it with anybody but, Jeezz.

[DougH]

@PSW

As before, don't judge the sustainer I describe for guitar, if it does not work as you envisage on bass. It is of course possible to do. However, I kind of think that for best results, given the string spacing...a driver for each string might be more effective...maybe even a small stereo amplifier...just thinking off the top of my head of course.

I'm not building your version.

[psw]

@fpaul...apologies for offending, but I read these words...

I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions, or how to wind an pot it

to imply that while you can tweak a circuit, you were not sure how to wind an inductor. There was also a link provided with a pictorial of exactly how to wind such an inductor...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211

All in three posts, and almost entirely pictures. I took this to mean that you needed help with find the "material to make a bobbin" or what the dimensions of a pickup are (or at least the width of your guitars string spread) and that by actually showing you the glue bottle and myself winding the wire with the glue was insufficient.

As I say, my apologies if your words above, don't actually mean what they seemed to be saying. Yes, I have developed an "attitude" in recent times and you would not be the first to suggest that I have not told them what they could find around the home to make a bobbin from for instance. Your words seemed to say that, I responded with the logical response.

These things are not for the kind of people who simply know how to read a layout, or even make one with creator, order the parts, solder it together, plug it in and play. Winding inductors is pretty basic stuff, but it is unusual...these ones can be trickier than some, but really, it is 10 mins work and all of the information is in 3 short picture laden posts and I even provided the sound clips here to here what that actual driver did in that guitar.

As a result, I feel that I am spoon feeding people a little overly.

@ DougH...great, look forward to hearing it

This thread is a hijacked thread, why you thought it would be atutorial I don't know...why it evoked the BS from Gurner I don't know...however...sinc ethe whole thread is radically off topic and those weighing in later seemed to have ignored the OP...this is the typical kind of thing...and in this, the first post...

Hi
I've been working on the sustainer project based on a ruby schematic. My problem is the driver part. I have been searching and find info about the amplifier but not much about the driver.
I've tried with an old P90 pickup whitch is 8ohm and it did'nt wotk. I don't understand why ? What is the big difference between the drvier and a standard pickup with the right impedance ?
Do you know place where it's well explained ?
thanx

Benfox...contrary to what Gurner has been saying..."My problem is the driver part. I have been searching and find info about the amplifier but not much about the driver."....the driver, not the circuit, could find plenty...understand?

"I've tried with an old P-90 whixh is 8 ohms and it didn't work"...lets see, its a standard known pickup...anyone hazzard a guess...yes, that's right was measuring it wrong, in fact this pickup could well be 8K ohms so only out by an extra 7992 ohms there...

Whats the difference between a standard pickup and a driver...well an enormous amount...otherwise Gurners and others theory that any coil will work with any old AC curret will sustain the strings. Ok, well you guys know more than me. How much voltage can you reasonably expect to push through a wire as thin as a hair...and 8K ohms? How many turns of pickup wire would get you to 8 ohms..10, 20? And would you expect this ta make much EMF? Ok, so...lets go the other way, lets use really thick wire, how many turns now... Too much...let's see, what are the resonance, capacitance and inductance qualities of these various coils...oh no, created time lags in resopnse with phase, better get Gurner on the phase correction formulas, I've built a coil that requires compesation in the guitar range to work at all...no problem, just a little digital hocus pocus, a little software adjustment...and away we go...back to where pete was...now about that AGC...hmmm

first response...

I'd say it has something to do with size or mass and its ability to resonate (don't really know - just a guess). I built my driver around a piece of steele cut from a PC-network card and around 200 rounds of copper wire. Works great!

I on the other hand have problems with the electronix part. My fetzer ruby tends to oscillate really easily.

Oh...followed the instructions (I don't know either of these people btw) but having trouble with the circuit..well, did he imlement the mods appropriate for the F/R to bring it up to standard...as per the data sheet...well, I ahve provided such a list, and if I had read that, i would simply have suggested same...

I think the pickup was probably closer to 8K ohms

Yeah...good answer...I was not privy to any of this, but I was sure someone would eventually work that out...none of you guys I notice...but there you go...

Eventually the OP returns after a disucussion about me and that the sustainer thread had been deleted due entirely to this kind of BS not allowing questions to be answered properly..and every thread hijacked by people like Gurner with an agenda and mis information and absolutely nothing to show for the posturing...

so we have...

I've tried with a 0.5 wire with about 150 turns. The string just oscillate a bit with a big distort behind.

Ahh...so we will not be following the instructions or the pictorial or the specifications. An am I to take it that when you can't get the appropriate tranny or IC you guys think that any 8pin chip is the same as another..they look the same right? How is this any different at all...is 0.5mm wire the same as 0.2mm wire...it's a huge effective difference...

Oh...and it didn't work...again, exposing the myth that just any coil will work effectively...

And then, the forum alerted me to these threads, so I signed in to see if I could help...

The design for a basic sustainer is quite clear...0.2 ohms wound to 8ohms with a thin profile.There are mods to the Fetzer/ruby circuit that make it more stable, that was not my suggestion, but any number of non-loading (buffered or preamped) small amplifier circuits (typically LM386 based) will work. The secret is in the driver IMHO...

Also attaching the links to the short tutorials. See...offering help, saying that there are solutions to the oscillation if that is a problem and offering to help, point the way to where the answers are on that one...and explain that there is a formula and you can't just do something completely different and expect to get a response from it...any more than you could just substitute any old chip cause you didn't have the correct one handy.

I also repeated my earlier stance, and all in one sentence...that apparently people chose to ignore...

Really it completely answers all of Gurner and other peoples question right there does it not?

# RoG fetzer or any other circuit, is not my suggestion (or recommendation)
# The design is for a well potted thin profile coil wound with 0.2mm wire to 8ohms
# There are mods available, from me, and on the data sheet, that make the RoG design more stable with such loads. Why RoG deleted these is unknown...I simply put them back...but you gentleman would be smart enough to catch that right?
# the secret is in the driver...

Now...typically, and again here, we get the same thing. Then a bunch of asides about my words or ego or whatever...and blaming the design. Do you really think that the examples that I have quoted, what this thread was really for, was going to turn into a tutorial when such things have existed since 2004 and have been so obviously ignored?

How am I to know if I read in such a thread these words...

I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions, or how to wind an pot it

That you are actually, counter to this, able to work out the size of the coil and how to make yourself a bobbin out of household stuff...when it has been posted and linked to you...IN PICTURES!!!

I tell you, it is spoon feeding, and just jumping on the bandwagon...at the very least hijacking the thread and asserting things that are the exact opposite in the OP's original post...I am having trouble with the driver! Because, sorry, there are a lot of very knowledgable people here, I have about 50 stompboxes and been making stuff for over thirty years...the sustainer was just one of many things I ahve done and continue to do...but there are a lot of people here who simply know how to solder component on a board, as long as they are able to be bought and there's a minimum of making. Give them a speaker box and ask them to wind a common passive cross over coil...and it would be out with the mouser catalogue to see if I couldn't just buy one so fast...

You over estimate the majority of people here, as anywhere. That's not a knock, just a fact. I can't tell the difference sometimes. I can only go by the words...

I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with...

Did you expect to find sustainer bobbins in the catalogue too? Look, Banika for instance made one, just use a single coil pickup bobbin...oh, again, my idea...sheeesh. 15 year old kids with no experience have done this ok, with a little soldering help from dad...and you think I shouldn't crack a bit patronising when people pass themselves off as supposedly capable? Come on...time to feed yourself...it sounds like you never actually had an interest anyway. I had assumed you and others had at least tried and it didn't work...

That coil in the pictorial took all of 10 minutes to wind...and I was taking the pictures so it slowed me down a little...how hard can it be?

[Quackzed]

o.k. i'm exhausted. i won't comment on right/wrong or take sides in this, because i don't see the point. i paint abstract paintings. some people get it. some people think it's b.s. i dont do it for the people that think it's b.s. and i don't do it for the people who like it. i do it because i paint abstract paintings.

[deadastronaut]

i think i'll go down the  e-bow route for now and try and make the 2 coils for 6 strings.....off board of course.seperate unit...
..dont want to ruin a perfect guitar for it...

just to experiment...with no arguing...except with myself ha ha..no i wont..yes i will...

[DougH]

When I finish mine, at this point I'm kind of hesitant to post anything about it.

[Gurner]

You over estimate the majority of people here,

No I don't ....and it's a bit rich to waltz over to an educated forum such as this spouting off like the 'big I am', with not even so much as a schematic to your own name (& then  start putting the locals down)

Like for like, by & large folks here are rather well versed in electronics (& therefore 'waffle' such as yours doesn't wash) -  and even after all your verbose replies, you've still not tabled *your* sustainer circuit recommendation. You seem to have adopted some form of internet sustainer librarian role - which has confused you into thinking you're associated with other's innovative sustainer circuit designs.

This is why you can't bring yourself around to  recommending a circuit - you just don't know. (Note: I'm trying to save many a lot of time wading through all the DIY sustainer thread mud ...only to come out the other side & find out they got dirty for no reason.)

Once you've your own circuit (or recommended circuit) - then maybe you'll win some of the credibility you so obviously yearn for, but for now, I'm firmly categorizing you as someone who hoards others' work like a stamp collector.

And before anyone has a pop at me ...I'm not the one claiming to be some form of self crowned DIY sustainer expert - but I strongly believe that someone who does, ought to at least come to the forum with a decent recommended circuit.

Ok, that's all I'm saying ...like fpaul, I'm done with this thread - so no need for the inevitable soapbox warriors.

[DougH]

I'm starting to see why there aren't many threads on sustainers. Perhaps there's too much fear that the same ol' personalities will get involved, the thread will get hijacked and consequently ruined.

I've reported this one to the moderator- just so everyone knows.

[space_ryerson]

if so does it sustain on the b and e strings, especially above the 12th fret..on a 24 fret guitar...
as i ve read that it can be a bit weak  on them..

does it matter what gauge of strings..? i use 9's...

i'd love to have this on my ibanez rg470... or even on a knockabout old guitar...

iirc, on sustainiac's FAQ, they advise against 24 fret guitars for their sustainer. I've seen both Fernandes and Floyd Rose sustainers on 24 fret guitars (Jackson Phill Collen signature model for the Floyd), and I've seen demoes of it working about the 12th fret, but no hands on experience for me. The guitar I have a sustainer in is 22 fret, and I use .11's!

While this is a non-reversable solution to the 24 fret Ibanez RG problem, this thread may be of interest to you.

I've reported this one to the moderator- just so everyone knows.

Thanks Doug. I was thinking of doing the same.

[Taylor]

The reason they don't recommend 24 fret guitars is because it pushes the sustainer coil too close to the pickup coil and you get squealing. There's a certain minimum distance you need to maintain to avoid the squealing.

[deadastronaut]

if so does it sustain on the b and e strings, especially above the 12th fret..on a 24 fret guitar...
as i ve read that it can be a bit weak  on them..

does it matter what gauge of strings..? i use 9's...

i'd love to have this on my ibanez rg470... or even on a knockabout old guitar...

iirc, on sustainiac's FAQ, they advise against 24 fret guitars for their sustainer. I've seen both Fernandes and Floyd Rose sustainers on 24 fret guitars (Jackson Phill Collen signature model for the Floyd), and I've seen demoes of it working about the 12th fret, but no hands on experience for me. The guitar I have a sustainer in is 22 fret, and I use .11's!

While this is a non-reversable solution to the 24 fret Ibanez RG problem, this thread may be of interest to you.

I've reported this one to the moderator- just so everyone knows.

Thanks Doug. I was thinking of doing the same.

Hmmmm.thanks...looks like i'll be doing experiments on an old crapocaster or some other unsuspecting piece of crap..then...bummer!...

cheers for the info though...saved a lot of grief!...

[trad3mark]

Just an idea i thought i'd throw out here...

Right, so the drivers that i've seen on various boards seem to be based on a rail pickup, or a normal single coil bobbin shape, with the magnet through the middle of the coil. The coil is then wrapped to approximately 8k resistance. Great. about a week or two ago, i was investigating the plausability of making my own pickups, which is where i came across the whole sustainer discussion. In the process of investigating how to make a humbucker, i dismantled an old bridge pickup I couldn't help but notice a few similarities between the sustainer driver, and the pickup.

When i dismantled it, i got to the stage where i had a lot of it seperated. I had the magnet, spacers, screws, even the two coils seperated. Out of interest, i measured the resistance of one of the coils. 8.4k. Hmmm.... If the coil's pole pieces are positioned in such a way that they're directly under the strings, maybe i wouldn't have to do much effort to make a driver out of this.

So, onto my VERY optimistic theory. As the coil sits, with nothing connected to it, it's not magnetised in any way. Fine. So what if i put the magnet from the pickup, and connected it at the bottom of the coil. The 6 pole pieces become magnetised, as per the driver. So then what if i built the ruby amp thing, and connected it to the coil, as per the build. Is it essentially the exact same thing???

Here's a rough diagram of my theory. If it works, then making these drivers is going to be MUCH easier and cheaper. In the picture you can see the magnet sticking out, and the two wires for the start/end of the coil.

[psw]

@trad3mark

A power surge took out my post, but I'll have another go...

Converting an HB to a driver has been done by Primal for instance, I think the pics have gone down over the years, but he did it without modifying the HB, just winding the coil to one of the bobbins...his write up is in the PG tutorial I believe. He used the F/R and made it small enough to fit in the selector cavity of his LP copy. It worked well by all accounts.

You may also want to refer to Banika's tutorial on making such a driver (on the more single coil)...

http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/



You will notice that the bobbin is "blocked up" to leave the required 3mm space for winding at the top of the coil, as per the design and many others have done before successfully. Also notice the use of white glue to pot the coil while winding, it is crucial that the coil is "solid" and allows for no internal vibrations. This is done in exactly the same way as the tutorial/pictorial linked before. Note also, that I supplied the 0.2mm wire as a donation in return for the work on the fabulous DIY Layout creator software and that the layout for a F/R design is offered there as well.

Note, the main mods I do recommend trying, is a 1k trim pot and a 10uF cap in series between pins 1 & 8 of the LM 386. the cap helps keep the chip happy (prevents internal oscillations) as per the data sheet for high gain applications, the trim pot allows the gain to be set below 'squealing' for a given guitar installation. For a result like my systems, I suggest a 100uF output cap for improved high string response and a nice bloom in the lower strings. Of course, tweak any such circuit for the response you seek.

...

Taylor is right, the commercial systems, in fact all sustainers, require a distance between the source pickup and the drivers. The pickup is obviously designed to be extremely sensitive to fluctuations in magnetic fields...like vibrating metal strings...and producing a signal. A driver is optimized for putting out hi electromagnetic signals...obviously the pickup can 'pickup' the signal of the driver. The effect is exactly as if putting a microphone near an amps speaker...squealing feedback.

...

Also note, that any near by coils (say middle or neck pickups, especially if it is built on top of a pickup) must be completely removed from circuit. The result of nearby coils is akin to a transformer, with the pickup coils haveing 1,000s more turns stepping up the interference. So, in installing, you must remove both the hot and the grounds of all nearby coils. I have provided 4pdt switch options to deal with pickups with more than a bridge pickup to cope with this. You need to remove all pickups other than the bridge from circuit (generally I remove the entire selector) and connect the bridge pickup (I hard wire the circuit to the bridge pickup) and turn on the power (usually by switching the -Ve to ground).

...

One should always test these things before modifying guitars, this can be done by holding the driver above the strings, over the neck, well away from all pickups. It is still best to take the output directly from the bridge pickup before the controls, not from the output jack.

...

Yes, while there are currently 6 active threads and new work on the sustainer, most have been closed in the last year because of hijacking and abuse, mainly towards myself. And, a vast amount of mis-information.

I was alerted to this thread, by email, and from the OP and attempted to answer his question. Throughout, Gurner, a member here of less than a month (compared to the years I have been a member and under my own name), has pushed home his own agenda, statistically mainly to hijack this thread for the purposes of belittling my work, while all the time apparently (though still not admitted) joined here to develop a circuit of his own, with the help of the member here, while preferring not to disclose what he wanted the information for?!

Now, I have made it clear. There is no "perfect" circuit. My driver designs are my own, there are others that work. If you want a very even tamed down sustainer...what Gurner would call a "decent" sustainer...well, I have even provided some examples there, exactly like the ones that he is seeking to explore, available freely for years and discussed at length and findable by the simplest of google searches. I never in any way suggested that these were my own, but they did come out of the work that arose from the huge sustainer thread...and many of these people continue to refine their ideas still further. Gurner does, or at least should know this.

Compare all the work I have done, the working versions of various kinds, the mountains of evidence and the numerous independent and successful recreations/verifications of what I have done...with the complete absence of the likes of Gurner...or so it would seem. In fact, he even lacks the sense to even tell the people he is asking these question of, what he is trying to achieve.

Yes, the threads are hijacked and completely ruined. I think you will find that I came here to help, provided that information...and it soon deteriorated when Gurner came along to push his agenda directly at me. It would not surprise me if this wasn't just a continuation of the kind of thing from the other forum, and I respond accordingly.

Any person, at any time, could contribute to this project, make their own. All I have asked is that if the driver design and ideas of mine, or any one else's, is acknowledged. TELEFUNKON kindly posted links to many threads I posted here over the years, and you can see all I have ever done was to report what was happening in my work, encourage those who have more skills than me to contribute, or to do my own research in the development of my own circuit designs.

I welcome the attention of and even correspondence with the moderators on the behavior and agenda of Gurner, who, one notes took down his email from public view the day it was suggested that he might like to take his beef off the public arena. Mine has always been freely available.

I welcome any person, even the gurners of this world, and always have, to build these devices...the amazing thing is not that I don't "recommend" circuits, but that none of these people have ever come up with one despite their protests of how they "could".,,in over 7 years. It is also amazing, that in all that time, no one has come up with an easier, more consistent, working design, than the one I presented over 6 years ago, and the subject of this thread.

There have been many Gurners come along, but few have produced anything of note, and often using the exact same designs, or so similar it is laughable, after all the talk has died down and they actually go away and do some work on the things.

I welcome and encourage it, there are others who have provided circuits, I have done my own, I've even told exactly what the originals used and provided sound clips. Obviously I have my own circuit, and several successful driver designs, I don't need credibility, I encourage you to do better...I'm sure it can be done, I am still just waiting...

Gurner simply fails to understand, that there is no perfect circuit, and I will not be goaded into presenting mine as a "recommendation". All manner of generic circuits will work with my driver designs, that's what the driver design was for, that's the point of the exercise. Gurner buys into the myth that the circuit is the key. However, he also thinks that everyone wants what he calls a "decent" sustainer...people want what works for them, there is no "perfect distortion" circuit...there are ones people like.

Perhaps it the Gurners of the world actually build one, well, then people can judge. Others have done and advocated strongly for various types, I have offered them, but you know...strangely, no one else seems to have reproduced them for themselves. I don't know why, they also work and are fine designs that give more of a response like Gurner seems to want.

Remember I have made dozens, in truth well over a hundred different types of drivers in the last 8 years, I did my first experiments 15 years before that.

I know that there are a huge number of very knowledgeable people here, I joined here years back for that reason (not less than a month to secretly pick their brains), but equally true, and if people are honest, the majority are people who would like to build a stompbox, start out with something simple, get a verified proven schematic and support when things go wrong (an awful lot of the posts in the forum, right?) and don't necessarily want to be 'designers' or experts in electronics, and would admit this to be true. Some do have aspirations for sure, some go on to learn and create some really cool stuff. These people are not as numerous.

I started on the sustainer thing quite innocently. I had been p0laying with some idea, I had made several guitars, I could solder well and had made several stompboxes, I played guitar (and still do) in bands in the early 80's, I have a degree in music including components int he physics of music...and like to tinker. The internet bacame widely available, I started a thread. Originally, because I ahd some new ideas about pickups and started to make them.

In researching this, I came across the sustainer stuff again, I rethought my earlier naive approaches, and though this would not be too hard. Started a thread, and built a lot of the things...and over the years refined it. This thread, unknown to me, would attract dozens of like minded people, all of whom contributed, as much as anyone LK who was a prominent member here and a good friend until he passed away (in fact, it might even have been me that alerted members here of his passing, I don't quite recall) and was involved from the start. It grew. But after some years and thousands of posts and 100's of 1,000's of visits, it started to attract some very odd people, people just like gurner, and as a result, every thread had been hijacked, myself cyber-stalked, and most of the material removed.

Hence, I have no patience when a thread is hijacked in the manner this one was, and by people like gurner who pass themselves off as knowing anything about the technology, making claims that he could do better...but not in fact apparently, having done anything or having anything to offer at all.

I'd much rather answer, and have those answers not adulterated by such rants, much as I attempted at the start of this post, and indeed the answer to the OP at the start of this thread. These kinds of things are exactly whey the main thread became so big and hard to search. Even the tutorials, which were succinct and meant to help, were hijacked and had to be closed. Many of the really abusive posts did have to be removed. Many such posts and even false material were removed and then denied though screen shots of the originals prove otherwise.

I'm glad that gurner has called it a day. I wish him luck in looking for the holy grail of sustainer circuits and hope that he does as much work on drivers as I did to come up with the simple but effective designs I did.

Many threads have started here about sustainers, they just are not supported, nor is there the interest or the expertise in general, or so it seems. Plus, invariably they seem to relate back to my work and copying my designs, just like in this thread. So, great, love to see a completely new and unrelated design and approach to these things, always have, always will.

Don't think for a minute that I like defending myself on something like this that was completed pretty much 6 years ago and having to correct the outlandish and false claims of the Gurners...just look back and see who really hijacked this thread...then do some history into the people responsible for the same things elsewhere. See how the old helping psw has been replaced with this version...cause every time I do post on this subject with a genuine desire to help with a design I pioneered and created...gurner or someone just like him, comes forward with the same kind of abuse and mis-conception and lack of any work at all to sustain his own credibility. Knowing full well I have made and designed many circuits (he demands I show him for instance) while now saying that if I want credibility, i'd design some.

So sure, I encourage the moderators or anyone else to look into the actual circumstances here, and verify my assertions, and anyone to contact me by means I have never kept hidden (or suddenly as in the case of Gurner) then take a look seriously at people like him, should they choose to do so.

[TELEFUNKON]

pete (psw): although I have never intended to build such a device, I`ve been following your posts with much interest from a general technical standpoint since their beginning on this forum. Thank you for all that information you provided! Don`t let a few individuals` negative opinions get you down! Thumbs up!

[deadastronaut]

@trademark..

yeah i pulled apart an old humbucker and got 2 lots of bits..

2 bobbins..one of which i have adapted as per bandika's..with the little 'L' shape brackets..

6 poles, magnets etc...and a steel bar...great..

@ psw..i know this has probabaly been asked a million times..but how do you measure the
ohms on the wire as you are winding it round a bobbin ....as you obviously dont want to scratch the enamel off the wire
till its right ?....and you dont wanrt to measure from the thick unused spool of wire?..hmmm...

i know its probably something obvious and im just being a dummy...lol...

[trad3mark]

i think i'm going in circles here though. The reason i was going to use 1 coil of the humbucker was because it already had a coil that was wrapped to 8k. If i was to take the coil off, would i not be basically wrapping the exact same thing?

[deadastronaut]

i think i'm going in circles here though. The reason i was going to use 1 coil of the humbucker was because it already had a coil that was wrapped to 8k. If i was to take the coil off, would i not be basically wrapping the exact same thing?

yeah i see what you mean...the only difference i can see with that is that the ones ive seen make the coil
a lot thinner..3mm..is what i have read...but yeah i dont see why not..