diy sustainer pickup conversion

[Quackzed]

i believe you need to use a thicker wire to about 200 turns to arrive at 8 ohms for the driver instead of pickup wire (thinner) to about 5000 turns or wahtever. this is based on reading psw's posts and threads. he's done alot of work on the idea and from what i understand of what i've read about it, pickup wire can't handle the current you need for the driver. but in the end it's not that hard to wind your own driver, 200 turrns of , not sure what guage wire...and you have to pot it with glue to keep the wire from moving and squeeling...
Again, this is not my findings but a few things i remember from reading the 'sustainer thread'. and psw's design ideas. thanks to psw for his work on this thing.

[Gurner]

A sustainer driver coil's DC resistance is in the order of 4 thru 16 ohms  - note that's NOT 4k thru 16K ...ie we're talking single figure ohms, not thousands of ohms

The resistance you aim for, depends on the type of amp you use with your driver - a lot of folks wind their drivers to 8 ohms - for no other reason than a lot of IC audio amps are spec'ed to work with that particular load. (they should really wind just under, as the DC resistance doesn't into consideration AC signal impedance)

At 8k, your dismantled humbucker pickup is out by a magnitude of x1000!

You need to strip the wire off your bobbin & wind it with much thicker wire - enamelled copper wire diameter sizes 0.18mm thru 0.25mm will get you in the right zone.

This handy online pickup winding calculator will show you how many turns you need to wind, to get to your 8 ohms (just tweak to match your own bobbin dimensions)....

http://pickups.myonlinesite.com/pickup.php?unit=mm&cl=55&cw=5.8&ch=5&bw=12&bt=.8&ends=round&wd=.235&id=.25&show=on&avt=450&adj=ohms&avo=8

[deadastronaut]

A sustainer driver coil's DC resistance is in the order of 4 thru 16 ohms  - note that's NOT 4k thru 16K ...ie we're talking single figure ohms, not thousands of ohms (the resistance you wind to, depends on the type of amp you use with your driver)

A lot of folks wind to 8 ohms - for no other reason than a lot of IC audio amps are spec'ed to work with that load.

At 8k, your dismantled humbucker pickup is out by a magnitude of x1000!

You need to strip the wire off your bobbin & wind it with much thicker wire - enamelled copper wire diameter sizes 0.18mm thru 0.25mm will get you in the right zone.

This handy online pickup winding calculator will show you how many turns you need to wind, to get to your 8 ohms (just tweak to match your own bobbin dimensions)....

http://pickups.myonlinesite.com/pickup.php?unit=mm&cl=55&cw=5.8&ch=5&bw=12&bt=.8&ends=round&wd=.235&id=.25&show=on&avt=450&adj=ohms&avo=8

hi. ok but how do i read the ohms on the wire while its being wound?..

without scratching off the enamel.etc...sorry for dumb question....?...cheers.rob.

[Gurner]

To take a DC resistance reading of the coil, you have to scratch  the enamel coating (or burn it off with a soldering iron) ...which frankly is a faff.

Therefore I think it's better to use the calculator above - & just go for it. In that example for wire size of 0.235mm used, it says 165 turns - you therefore wind your coil counting up to 165! Don't snip off your wire from the feeding spool once you've got to 165, scratch off the enamel & take a DC resistance reading first!

(if in doubt, I'd say add a few turns at the end - as it's then easy to unwind a few turns off if your end DC resistance reading is too high)

And by the way, the reason pickup wire can't be used (current handling ability aside) is because you'd need a AC signal of several hundred volts across the coil it to get sufficient current through the coil  - not something your typical guitarists would want a few millimetres under his hands.

[deadastronaut]

cool...cheers. i'll try that...rob.

[psw]

Thanks...I'll lay off since my stalker from PG has decided to go off and do some actual development...I sincerely hope that something comes of it...EDIT: untrue to his word, he's still hanging around.

@trademark..

Thanks...and I am glad you have not been put off...

see this driver tutorial...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211

For measuring the wire, potting with glue is vital...avoid alternatives unless you are very familiar..the white PVA wood glue is fine and safe and cheap...it won't dry too fast, no fumes, cleans with water and does the job.

It can be easier if you do the driver lead wires (no need for shielded wires) and solder the start end...this will make it easier to get a reading from (especially with glue getting about. * ohms will be around 150 turns, but it depends a lot on the core size and winding style.

So...wind perhaps a hundred before reading. Have a bit of wet and dry paper to lightly take of the enamel without breaking the wire (the back of a knife is often good too to take off the enamel insulation) and read from the start to that point. You will likely need to wind more, the glue potting will easily heal the reading points. EDIT: Burning off insulation with a soldering iron is very ill advised, you wouldn't do that with plastic insulated wire I hope. Also, ill advised even to have the soldering iron about while winding with glue...wait till the coil is set.

Another tip, which you can see in the tutorial, is preparation. Have pre-cut some strips of PVC tape to the width of the bobbin (say 3mm) you are winding to...you will need this to hold it all together when finished and with glue on your hands and a coil able to unwind...you won't be able to cut it properly later.

It should take about 10 minutes by hand. Add glue to the inside of the bobbin and it will press out as you wind, every now and again add a little more. Also, have a stick or something to press the sides of the coil in as these will be looser then the ends as you wind. Perhaps even have some plastic or similar strips (that wont stick to the glue, perhaps some wood with PVC tape on it) that you can use to hold the finished PVC tape wrapped coil in tighter at the sides and perhaps some tape or something to clap these on overnight as the coil sets.

...

There has been some controversy over my "recommendation" of using wood glue for potting. It does not set rock hard, but plenty hard enough to dampen any vibrations and small gaps between the wires...is safe and easy to clean with water...and reversible. If you were wanting to take it apart and wind a different coil, easily removed for another go. Super glue is dangerous, drys much faster than the time need to wind and make a neat coil and has absolutely no filling qualities...in fact it shrinks as it drys potentially creating voids that could vibrate (though may appear to be rock hard on the surface) and possibly dissolve the enamel coating causing shorts. Trying to reverse such recommendations has been some of the battle in the last year or so.

I have used epoxies in recent times...but I had to go through a few to find some that are viscous enough and has a long setting rate, these are uncommon and expensive. I also have had some experience with epoxies from boat building in the past. The only reason to use such things is to make the self supporting coils like that on my tele or the wafer coils that have no permanent bobbins. When doing bobbined coils, I've still stuck to the PVA method and so continue to advise that.

...

So...there are no real "stupid" questions if people are genuinely trying to do it right. EDIT; there may be some stupid suggestions though i see. Thinking there is no difference between a standard pickup and my design is naive. Saying that the specs and dimensions are important for a coil of the correct characteristics to work with a small amplifier circuit...well, this thread is a good example. Having cleared up that a pickup is fine wire of thousands of ohms, they ignore the formula of 0.2mm wire and wind with 0.5mm wire...a completely different thing.

...

A couple of notes on this very simple design for the driver coil.

You are making an electronic component ~ an inductor. If you were following a schematic here for a circuit that required an inductor of a certain value or size or type...you would not expect to be able to just put in anything and expect it to work. The inductor is a vital part of the whole enterprise, and although unusual, not at all hard really to do by hand...cross over guys have been doing it for decades.

Although the wires are not "magnetic" being copper, once you send an AC current through it to make an electromagnetic device that has a change or states as fast as the vibrations of the string frequencies...these too will be driven if there is any possibility of vibrating. Causing all kinds of problems, decreased efficiency, screaming (even the coil itself may make a noise), heat and creating all kinds of stray EMI signals that can get into the pickup driving it.

The potting side of this then is a vital part and extremely necessary. The only way to do it effectively and solidly is with glue, and to wind with the glue. Seems a little odd, and perhaps messy, but it is the easiest way, and water based glue means no harm done.

If the coil does not quite reach 8 ohms, don't panic. Some of mine have been around 7.5 ohms and been fine. I even did a 7 ohm one by accident and it worked..and up to 8.5ohms...but i would err on the lower side from experience.

As you wind the ohms will build very gradually, don't even bother till say 80 turns with 0.2mm wire...but be ware, as the coil builds, the core size builds and the resistance measurement will rise ever more rapidly...so towards the end you will need to take more measurements...the glue will cover the points as I say.

I've not wound to an HB bobbin, these are a little smaller than your average SC bobbin, but not much. Generally there is extra space, you will unlikely need to fill to the edge of even the 3mm space unless the sides of your windings are really loose. As I say, occasionally push the sides in and wind over and clamp tight while setting with the windings taped over and left overnight.

Avoid the temptation of using a machine. It should seriously only take you 10 minutes or so and hand winding allows you to ensure good glue penetration...it probably works out quicker than a machine or setting the bobbin in a drill or anything like that.

hope that helps...most people have found that with the right care and attention that they will get a device that will sustain all the strings.

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Perhaps when you reach that stage, you will be encouraged to look further into making more refined circuits to get the kind of responses that you are seeking. There are many circuits developed here for instance that can easily be adapted to this kind of thing. In my own development of such things, the Aussie mart compressor for instance, also using an LM386 base was a big influence on how adaptable the LM386 can be. Col's forward feed circuit may also be of interest, designed for this application. Recently Col suggested tweaking the zobel network with a higher capacitor for such drivers.

You may also be encouraged to look further into driver designs. Mine is an old, simple but proven formula. I have continued to pursue it because it a) works and b) meets my other criteria (low mod, very compact, simple and effective). For instance there is a camp that used two coils like an HB...this would be a different formula of course...you could I suppose make one out of a whole HB. The main idea is to limit the EMI with opposing polarity coils (just like an HB cancels out noise). Most commercial sustainers have this kind or variation (like a bi-lateral driver) and my single coil drivers are again, in that way unique and more akin to the eBow approach.

However, I have some reservations...they undoubtably work. With a single coil and compact "thin depth winding", the idea is to limit the EMI to as small a space as practicable, right under the string where it is needed. So, minimal depth and width keeping the influence of EMI to the source pickup contained. A bigger driver introduces all kinds of problems to this...even with canceling properties of such a design.

Further, large drivers generally introduce the possibility of phase problems...hence all the commercial units require tricky phase correction circuitry. Additionally, large drivers often preclude the normal placement and operation of the neck pickup. Many don't find this a concern, and I have done most of the work it would seem in multi-pickup guitar installations and the problems with that (bypass switching). Obviously, if you only have the bridge pickup in the guitar and a driver, all you need do is switch power on to the circuit to operate the thing.

However, there are some, chiefly Col, who have pursued the dual coil idea and there may well be some advantages still to come of that, these things are in development right now I believe. For me, the simple designs have been effective and have endured and many, many of them have been successfully built...even with the F/R circuit and particularly with the 1 - 8 pin cap and trimmer and the 100uF output cap instead of the 220uF. If you don't mind switches on the guitar, you may even consider switching between these caps as the response and sound can be quite different.

As I had been trying to get across...if in performance you find that the dynamic range of the guitar is too much...running the guitar through a compressor will tame things down...a distortion of course generally squashes things nicely and makes the guitar sing. The general aim though is to be capable of producing clean sustain. (think of the tune "with or without you" by U2, using one of  Micheal Brooks guitars I believe, though often said to be an eBow...fernandes guitars are now used live).

However, if you have a mind to try some AGC, the principle is much the same...it certainly is an area to explore. I have  

Running effects through the drive circuit, for uber tweakers, generally is disappointing. I have an old boss 'slow gear' and such an auto volume might be a cool thing. similarly, filters can have interesting effects, might be interesting to try something like an auto wha. For effects hounds, the sustainer opens up venues on the guitar to exploit extremely long sweeps of filters, flanger and other such devices...but not that rewarding in the drive the physical string.

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I have found that the driver has consistently been the thing that puts most people off, not the circuit...but really it is just a 'different' thing to do for people used to solely soldering in components. There are also some unusual challenges. The whole "system" is finely balanced. Many people have thought that with enough power, any coil will work, but this is not the case. Or that there are vibratiosn of a poorly made coil to spec, and that adding power will help things. The idea is to get the effect desired with the minimum possible power required...more power generally means more distortion and EMI effects such as "fizz" caused by the source pickup sensing the drivers output...to all out squealing.

It is also deceptively simple and admit that I arrived at it through trial and error. Different wire and coil sizes tried to get what I found to work best with pretty straight amp circuits. This was the entire aim, that no one else had done it, nor come up with a superior formula in all this time is a testament to it regardless of how it was arrived at. However, it's simplicity and my openness about it seems to make people underestimate it. I have of course made many different driver designs over the years, hex drivers, bi-lateral drivers, dual blade compact HB drivers...but I have consistently returned to this basic formula and set of criteria for my own use.

My main guitar for instance is this one...http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=blueteleful...though I am building a new one at the moment...

This is the driver and circuit...



you can see that although the coil is self supporting, it is a basic ordinary 3mm steel core and a 3mm high coil of 0.2mm wire with 4 craft magnet ceramics at the bottom. In line with my "criteria" for such devices...the driver simply sticks to the pick-guard with double sided tape, the circuit fits under the bridge pickup and the switching and the battery fits into the unmodified extremely tight standard tele control cavity...



These are important aspects that my critics always over look. I work to an extensive list of criteria, not just performance. I don't just make circuits, I make these whole instruments. So, it is important for me to retain the neck pickup and choices of pickup (commercial units and most elaborate DIY versions do not)...it is important that the circuit be tiny (you can imagine how small this thing would be in SMD)...it is actually important to me to retain the dynamic range of the instrument...so it does sound and react like a really alive loud guitar. That's not for everyone, it can be tamed, it isn't the easiest thing to play...but it certainly sustains on all strings and produces an enormous range of harmonics.

The biggest criticisms most have with things like the fernandes and the like is that they are too tame; don't sound or feel like a loud guitar. I never aimed to replicate their performance. I have tested mine head to head with a sustainiac...the board in it was at least 4x the size. I'm not suggesting mine is "better", it is different...I personally quite like it, the owner of the gem custom, quite like mine. That's all cool.

I've put up sound clips years ago, and found in this thread, specifically so that people would not be mislead as I was accused of, of what such a simple system can do and sounds like. Also, I can categorically, and have stated, exactly what was in the original...a simple preamp and LM386 circuit pretty much straight off the data sheet with a 100uF cap on the output. And posted again the original demos of that guitar. So, and with verification by many who have used it, I can truthfully say I have not used RoG circuits, and suggest putting back the stabilization caps they omitted from the data sheets...that i would not expect and people have reported, much the same performance to be expected.

...

I apologize for my lack of patience in recent times on this subject and some others on a few forums. I have been effectively stalked and constrained from supporting people with this project and much of the information closed, or removed because of the kind of stuff leveled at me in a sustained gesture for the last 18 months.

I have also been suffering the flu, but anyone familiar with me, will know that I will vigorously defend against the unacknowledged use of my work...but mostly, against this ridiculous idea that I should or am in anyway be obliged to divulge anything I want to, and in particular more advanced ideas that is entirely my own work above what I have already freely given...a working simple proven and verified project.

People should also be aware that this design dates back to 2004...so that is a long time ago now. Personally, I have moved onto some other projects of course, and actively play the guitar. I'd suggest that it is rare for anyone to be so active in their completed work, and so giving of my time (resented or not by some) after so many years. After all, what really is in it for me...notoriety in a few obscure guitar forums...it wouldn't impress you wife, GF or loved ones...what do people really think I crave credibility in?

But, I appreciate that people continue to make these things and my design has stuck with it and so continue to give back. Many people had a great part in it's development, especially the late Lovekraft from this forum, and without those people, I dare say, like many before me...I probably would not have even gotten this simple version off the ground and still bogged down puzzling over the patents instead of finding another way. And for anyone thinking to go their "own way"...I'd encourage you to consider the eBow and ask why cant the same kind of simple thing work for a sustainer...then look at my simple design, with the same kind of respect. Elegant, simple, works...potential for the DIY'er to tweak to their hearts content and really exploit the potential of this fascinating technology....good luck and enjoy...pete

EDIT: PS...beware the dreaded calculator boffins...especially from people who have not done this. They are rarely if ever right, you will need to take readings, they are a guide at best...it is true that it should be about 165 turns...but just go by the readings as the wiring style and the bobbin can make a bit of a difference and you are going to need to do it anyway.

[psw]

@Gurner...if you are so adept at electronics...why on earth come around here suggesting people take a soldering iron to heat resistant enameled wire while they are winding with glue...how about you make something that you can sensibly advise on and stick to your guns and "faff" off like you said you would instead of spreading bad and false information about a project you have not built and clearly have no respect for?

Also...the wire gauge is not 0.235mm...this is again significantly bigger than 0.2mm...think a little about the geometry at work in that...as the wire diameter increases, the amount of copper in it dramatically increases...you are greatly misleading people by using 0.235mm even to calculate turns...cut it out.

Here's an idea...instead of hijacking this thread based on my design ideas...how about you make your own thread about your own far more original ideas. I take it your not using my driver design, I certainly hope not. Oh, or are you still too shy to admit that you joined here less than a month ago to secretly build your own umm "widget", and then spend most of your time having a go at me...come on

Gurner, unless you have first hand knowledge, the idea of using a soldering iron to strip any insulated wire or to rely on calculators or to advise anyone on things you have apparently no experience in...is a disgrace...any one here should immediately know that I hope.

I am sincerely trying to help, you committed yourself to go away...I sincerely hope that you do exactly that so I can dedicate my time to actually helping people succeed, instead of you sabotaging their efforts with such ridiculous nonsense...

If there is anyone on this forum who thinks that stripping insulation is ok with a soldering iron, this project is not for you...and see my previous assessment of the majority of builders that I had started to think I had misjudged.

I am afraid if such stupid interjections continue, I will not be able to offer the advice from a person who has actually succeeded in this project and leave it to the likes of Gurner to watch you fail and then say "I told you so" as he laughs at me from the wings. He has his own agenda, has followed me here from PG and has apparently no experience in such things...and some bad advice that suggests his bravado at even making simple circuits is unfounded...let alone his ambitions to be a designer in this technology. So...take a hike Gurner...start your own thread if you like...do not sabotage others projects as has been done at PG...and quit hounding me...

[andronico]

@Gurner...if you are so adept at electronics...why on earth come around here suggesting people take a soldering iron to heat resistant enameled wire while they are winding with glue...how about you make something that you can sensibly advise on and stick to your guns and "faff" off like you said you would instead of spreading bad and false information about a project you have not built and clearly have no respect for?

Gurner, unless you have first hand knowledge, the idea of using a soldering iron to strip any insulated wire or to rely on calculators or to advise anyone on things you have apparently no experience in...is a disgrace...any one here should immediately know that I hope.

It´s enough for me PSW ! I´m really tired of reading, reading, reading and reading, words, words, words, pages, pages and pages of the similar things ! I really love sustainers and electronics, but this fight is intolerable !.  Gurner is not talking to you ! He´s giving his point of view about the driver, he noticed that the other DIYer said 8K instead of 8 ohms ! He was the first to say that, not you...  And who says that he´ll use glue while winding that driver ? He can wind and then use hot paraffin (candle´s wax) like some pickups.

If there is anyone on this forum who thinks that stripping insulation is ok with a soldering iron, this project is not for you...and see my previous assessment of the majority of builders that I had started to think I had misjudged.

These words offends me ! I´m 43 years old and developt digital hardware for more than 20 years and sometimes have to make inductors to test power supply designs, and use a soldering iron to stripp the insulation, a good one with temp regulation, and NEVER, repite NEVER had a problem.  If you haven´t the appropiate soldering iron or don´t know how to use it, please continue with your method but DON´T INSULT MY KNOWLEGDE AND OTHERS !

I haven´t nothing against you nor your point of view about sustainers and your unique designs but sometimes...

Please don´t take it personal.

Ah, for those who wants to test another electronic circuit, try this one, don´t use the famous LM386 but the video shows that works well.

http://freespace.virgin.net/e.macdonald/susdriver009/sustainer.htm

or this (originaly in french, translated by Google) :

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://strib.fr/%3Fp%3D46&sl=fr&tl=en

[trad3mark]

i think i'm going in circles here though. The reason i was going to use 1 coil of the humbucker was because it already had a coil that was wrapped to 8k. If i was to take the coil off, would i not be basically wrapping the exact same thing?

yeah i see what you mean...the only difference i can see with that is that the ones ive seen make the coil
a lot thinner..3mm..is what i have read...but yeah i dont see why not..

Ok, so i've some free time today, and here's where i stand. Maybe someone who has had success with one of these can clarify some things before i set this up for prototype. EXCITED!!!

my theory seems ready for circuitry. It's the coil from a humbucker with the screws for polepieces. I figured that in the event that some strings are more responsive to the sustainer than others, the height of the individual pieces can be adjusted. awesome.

Now, next up is my plan for testing. I've a big breadboard, where i'll build the ruby amp, unless someone can suggest something better. I don't have the LM386, so i'm going to have to try it with a TL071. should be ok really...

One thing i noticed is that one crucial point that seems to repeatedly come up is the coil height of 3mm. Could be an issue here, maybe not. The coil height on this is 5.5mm. If my old physics knowledge is correct, that means that there might be less sustain, as the field will be sort of spread out, and not as strong. This, i anticipate. My plan of action is to build the driver with the one coil, and see how close the driver needs to be to my guitar to get sustain. I have an ebow to compare results with. So what happens if it has to be pretty close? Well I was thinking i could always use the second coil too in that case. Effectively making two drivers of lower strength, instead of one strong one.

It all sounds great in theory, but, before i actually go and try it, I want to make sure i get my wiring order correct.

So, Am i right in saying:
Driver will have 2 wires coming from it. A Coil start and a coil end. One of these wires goes to ground. The other goes to the output of the Ruby amp? I'm not sure what the connection between the ruby and the driver is. Clarification on this would be awesome.

Very excited to try this. I'm sure someone could help me clear up these issues. Cheers all! EEEE!

[Paul Marossy]

Geez, what is it about sustainer threads that gets everyone's panties all up in a bunch?!  

I admire psw's patience. I've read a lot of the original PG thread and even chimed in once in a while. I know he has put a LOT of time and effort into it. And puts up with a lot of BS from naysayers and trolls.  

Some people, who I will leave anonymous but should be obvious to most, just don't know when to stop. I don't like seeing all the mud slinging going on here, it's all very counterproductive, you know?  

[psw]

@andronico

Hehe - I agree it seems puzzling how can a thread run that long & still (apparently) not even have an agreed basic circuit in the tutorials? I see a degree of repetition wrt the Fetzer Ruby being used, but never anybody actually coming right on out & affirming - "yep, the Fetzer Ruby is the best in class for a basic sustainer" ...which frankly in the light of 300+ page thread, is a little underwhelming.

What Gurner wasn't disclosing in this forum which he just joined...is that he came here specifically to explore making an alternative sustainer thread and apparently to pursue me in by far the majority of threads. He also recently made a commitment to leave this thread that he hijacked and go elsewhere. He has no work to show, and apparently no expertise in this subject...or desire to help.

...

Sorry, but you have it wrong...the above was Gurners first post, late in the day, and deteriorated from there to further express his personal opinion and directed towards me...

suregork was the fist to simply answer the OP's dilemma succinctly on the 2nd post. Also...

I was alerted to the thread and contributed the same on the first page in an attempt to help...however, the OP continued to have problems...I'didn't turn up until post 18 in an attempt t help.

You turned up at thread 18 not answering that question and not pointing out that the OP's use of pickup wire at 8K ohms would not work, and that an inductor wound with 0.5 wire would create an inductor completely different from on wound on 0.2mm...which of course with your "plea to authority" (apparently yours...and your age is also immaterial, I am older than you, so what?) logical fallacy  ...you would of course know but failed to point out when you first contributed to this thread.

andronico, your contribution was to simply say that you didn't like the LM386 chip...that's nice, all kinds of chips will work...not exactly useful or contributing anything to the problem at hand. Your latest contribution is to again repeat this, though it is a little disturbing.

...

So...I eventually turned up with a post to help and links to appropriate threads with pictorial of exactly how to do it.

The OP was greatful for my contribution and got the correct wire...but still had problems...still before Gurners unwelcome interjections...

thank you very much for this answer with a lot of details !!

i've made my first try with my ferrite driver. It works quite well.
I did it with 0.2 mm²  wire as you said.
The only problem i have is with the high E string.
Something weird happen too. I could'nt check the impedance with my multimeter...
It gave me strange values....i've made around 175 turns and i check sevral time the resistance.
Here i'm around 16 ohm not kohm but ohms with 175 turns. Ive check my multimeter and it's ok working fine with known restance.

Can you work out why he might have been having problems...why then didn't you with so much inductor knowledge not chime in?

This is what the OP was thinking...

I was thinking of my resistance problem
Maybe my wire is bad ? The enamel is perhaps bad....
I've changing values...

This was my answer...

Reading the resistance of a coil should be no different from reading that of a resistor. The enamel insulation needs to be well stripped and your probes clean to get a good consistent reading, an appropriate setting on the meter for low ohms is also required of course. This has been the problem for me when such things occur. The glue potting also can cause problems with making a good reading. The actual insulation enamel makes little to no difference, any loss of enamel occasionally in reading will be re-insulated by the glue potting. That sized roll of wire should make a couple of the things I think...it's much as I used to use.

That's right, we are winding in Glue, hence it is likely that the glue was causing false readings even though the OP probably did strip the wires.

Now...you have experience in using a soldering iron on enamel and wet PVA insulated wire? If so, you would know that the PVA would burn, potentially giving conduction and adding a film that may conduct and give you a false reading. Yet, if you actually have wound such inductors with glue, and you had contributed earlier with an opinion on amp chips...why then did YOU not point this out since you seem to know so much better than me?

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As for Gurner...I have already pointed out that he joined here on April 30, he at that time contributed 18 posts in total...12 of which were on this thread, OT, Hijacked and entirely directed at me. He also appears to be from PG or a lot of interest in it, and would know as most here pointed out at the start of this thread...where you had already posted and read...that all sustainer threads had closed because of this behaviour. The behaviour here has repeated.

Further, none of his information was helpful or based on any practical experience. But it gets worse, he started threads about vague phase correction calculations and help finding an op-amp...for some "widget" that he would not reveal...though his posts here make it pretty obvious that it is in fact a sustainer. So, he has an agenda and has leveled personal attacks on me...sorry, but you are mistaken on both points.

But let the OP explain it...

i've found where the probleme where.
I used crocodie type wire to connect my multimeter and burn the enameled to remove it.
That's bad !!

Oh...yes, benfox...you don't need 20 years in DSP to know that's BAD...well done!

...

Yes...you can push the alternatives...but the use of CA glue is extremely bad advice...



Not only that, both have an association, this one in particular a notorious association with the PG stuff. If you read that you will see that he does not specify the wire gauge. However, elsewhere...he forcefully suggested that this original concept, though admittedly lifted from me, was his own and I had no rights to it. He suggested the use of an amp chip (also previously known to be used by me) and a primitive stock 741 (now theres a good old chip) was sufficiently different a circuit, for him to go on to claim that the entire design was his own, concept and all (which is clear prior art) and know acknowledgment was warranted. He further claimed, and you will note there is no mention of the actual wire gauge required...that "any wire gauge will work"...however it transpired that he actually used 0.2mm wire wound to exactly my specifications.

And of course, as I have always pointed out...any amp circuit, buffered to prevent loading, would potentially work. Well, why don't I use the 7052 if I've tried it. Because...it has overheating shut of and what this person didn't tell you is that his circuit shut down to protect itself regularly through overheats...so, you may not like the LM386, it is antiquated...but please, make yourself more aware of the characteristics of such amps before you chip in first (and OT) with "I don't like the LM386" and now tacitly suggesting an alternative that has known problems in this application.

...

The french site guy, Strib...also has a long association with the PG original thread. Who's driver does that remind you of? Yes, an exact unacknowledged copy, right down to the rail of my design. Again...just recover the wire from an old transformer...but the truth as it transpired was I believe that in the end he used the 0.2mm (there have been a few of these guys pop up in the last 18 months).

He did use the F/R as shown...but he wasn't happy. In fact, Strib was never happy...he didn't use the prescribed formula often and felt the answer was simply to put more power through it (resulting in many EMI problems). He chose to use the 820M chip because he couldn't get results with the lower powered LM386 F/R and similar. He also like everyone else of such ilk...just "designed" this circuit cribbed from Bob Blick and the 820 data sheet...no specifics for sustainer function...creating a much larger power hungry amplifier circuit in an effort to overcome his perceptions that the problems he had were due to insufficient power.

This is exactly what Gurner has consistently pushing at me of course in this thread...that I ripped off RoG. The F/R was suggested by someone else with permission (so there is no rip off, how many of you guys even ask?) but he knows that my circuits are my own work, not cribbed off of others. That's Gurners beef after all...that I won't give him my newer circuit designs!!!!! Keep Up!!

However, he "cheated" in his demos. There is so much distortion that it disguises the fact that he his upping of power strategy was causing EMI distortions. Even though it proves yet again that this design can work reasonably well (In stribs case, just not cleanly as can be achieved with a efficient driver with less power spreading less EMI effects to the source pickup). You did check out the demo's, yes?

...

You may well have good intentions pushing alternatives, but a poor knowledge of this threads history, or the overall politics involved. Both of these links are related to recent event and have problems. Both are not particularly helpful to the people I am trying to help, provides poor and insufficient information. You have grossly misrepresented Gurners involvement.

I'm sorry if you are offended, but burning off insulation is not a good strategy, especially when there is the involvement of glues...PVA may be safe enough, but most likely going to cause problems with reading by your method. If you had read this thread (which you had contributed to flaccidly before me) you would know that with all your "expertise" you did and continue to offer little besides that you personally, are not fond of the LM386. I've made it quite clear that the LM386 amps are not compulsory to the project...but all the people I am trying to help have chosen to take this route already.

If you had read the relatively succinct replies from the start of the thread, which I felt compelled to point out,...you would see that the OP found that your method was "exactly" the diagnosis for his problems...yet, you remained silent then, and repeat this bad advice now.

So...can we dispense with the bad advice, and help these guys succeed in what they are trying to do?

Now Gurner made a commitment to leave this thread...but still he remains!

[psw]

Now...having put that to rest...OH NO>>>

Gurner I am reminded has also already been told in his own thread about not trusting online calculators...but he has convinced himself that all this can be worked out with the software, instead of just build one...as people here are trying to do...so I will try to address the more rewarding concerns of those actually doing something and hope the peanut gallery keeps out of it...unless they have something useful to impart...yes?...No?...

OK...

...

Thanks Paul...it is trying...I will try and sort out the ridiculous bad advice, side tracks and bad advice that is continuing to spew forth in posts like above, and then see if we can undo this with some more practical advice for the people who are actually doing this...from someone who has actually done it many many times...and the originator of the design...don't care how old you are (I'm older) or your time futzing with unrelated DSP technology...this should be simple.

....

Oh...for goodness sake...Gurner...

A sustainer driver coil's DC resistance is in the order of 4 thru 16 ohms  - note that's NOT 4k thru 16K ...ie we're talking single  figure ohms, not thousands of ohms ...

a lot of folks wind their drivers to 8 ohms - for no other reason than a lot of IC audio amps are spec'ed to work with that particular load. (they should really wind just under, as the DC resistance doesn't into consideration AC signal impedance)

What a load of CRAP!!!

Folks do not wind their drivers to 8 ohms just because that's what the chip wants as a load. The do it because a coil wound to my specifications (thin 3mm deep and with 0.2mm wire) will produce a coil with the appropriate characteristics to work with simple amplification (creating some inate AGC restrictions btw) within the range of the guitar TO WORK as specified.

Impedance will of course change with frequency. The reason that the commercial units need to compensate for phase, is because their drivers, radically different and far bigger with more turns and huge cores...do not work without it. Hence THE WHOLE POINT OF THE/MY DESIGN!!! How many times must this be pointed out to you!!!

Why don't you get these things?

An inductor, wound with the same wire and form and core to twice the resistance...even if driven by a chip designed for a 16 ohm load (the LM386 will drive 16 too...or 4...but that is NOT the design)...will have radically different characteristics.

The driver is a vital part of the "circuit" or system...are you seriously saying that if you saw an inductor in a circuit, you could advise another with half to twice the resistance (let alone the unknown resonance, inductance and lag nature of the thing) and it WOULDN'T MATTER?

Will you PLEASE...go away and do some work. I am not saying that alternative drivers will not work of course, I've made many, others too...there are many patents and commercial examples. We are talking about this design of MINE...not hypotheticals out of your inexperienced mind Gurner.

This is all extremely poor intellectually, technically and advice destined to confuse and NOT WORK as described. If people don't see this, see my previous generalization. It has been forcefully and repeatedly put to me that this forum is far superior than PG and that the people populating it are far more knowledgeable and experienced (but clearly not older, not that it matters) than me. Yet, the things put here are rediculous. And now...we are back to the original OP's equiry...oh, do I ahve to wind a coil...I thought I could just use half a pickup. For goodness sake people.

I linked to tutorialsd, pictorials and even cited Primals work with HB pickups. His posts (sans pictures) are in that linked tutorial. This is not new, or hard. In Fact, primals worked stright out of the box on my design and the guy had very little experience, none in circuit building (though his dad helped with the circuit board I believe) and none (like most of us) with coil winding. He also was the first to strip an HB coil and make it in this way...though I had proven with the sustainer box on my own LP that there was no reason for it not to work...



You know Paul...I ahve no idea why it is that something as simple and clear cut as this attracts such people, has been poluted in recent years with misinformation, bloating and then closing if not removing all information.

The original thread was purely a development discussion about a huge range of devices and approaches. It was not for "instruction" but discussion. The tutorials were presented to aid with the basic working designs primarily of mine. Why this is so hard to "get" I simply don't know.

Besides all the indignant hype here, the reality is that most people are young (possibly) and inexperienced, but as Primal and many others have shown, this is a very simple device as presented by me. And...if you properly follow the very simple instructions...it nearly always works as described.

Now...that people don't seem to appreciate the difference between 8 and 8k ohms is testament to that. But...worse, this is common enough...it was the exact problem that started this thread and easily answered. As was that burning off the insulation with a soldering iron was the problem too...and BAD (according not only to me but the OP who correctly diagnosed the problem)...all of which is ignored.

Now...in recent times I have had this presented to me...

OH...for goodness sake...trad3mark...you already had all this explained to you, and the tutorials at PG on May 14...part of your response...

looks like i would have to buy stuff for this then. That sucks, cos it totally delays it by a while.

You already know that you can't use a pickup as a driver, not even half a pickup...are you really sure you are capable of doing this if you can't follow the simple tutorials already provided to you? Do you really think the advice would change?

Now...waht I was looking for...this guys thread was as usually completely hijacked...he was having problems...I as usual asked to see this thing he was working on...not till page three did he admit to using super glue completely contrary to advice and resulting in a coil that not only emitted a squeal for the loose windings (He may also be the guy who originally used playdoh...or was he also the guy who asked...well I thought I'd just use pickup wire, but it keeps breaking, but it's ok...i TIED the ends together...now I can't get a reading off it!), but also...eventually...came back with some of his work...



If you think playdoh is appropriate, if you think that tying wires together without soldering will work...if you consider the above wiring style to be sufficient and can't follow the simplest instructions and one to one help...this and possibly electronics generally...IS NOT FOR YOU.



....



@deadastronaut

I'm sorry, this thread is so out of control I think I am mixing you and Trad3mark up as you are working on similar things...

@trad3mark

Did you not read the original posts on this thread...you can't use a pickup coil as a driver coil. And, Gurners advice is pointless. He has not made one and is leading people off the design that has proven to work.

I really think that most of the questions have been answered already on this thread...please refer to the original materials, I am happy to answer proper questions put to me directly as always...but this is getting impossible to work with...

...

the short answer above was what I originally thought would suffice. If someone would like to convince me that this forum inherently have superior knowledge and skills...as a general rule...I really think the evidence here completely betrays that.

You know what...go ahead, brn that PVA...stick 100 watts through a pickup coil...think that any wire to any resistance is good as another...don't like the 386...fine, did I say use a 386...no, I said a small amplifier, an LM386 is a typical and known choice.

Do not use super glue...above all I have tried to keep people safe..CA glue is extremely toxic both on the hands but especially to breath (and winding a coil with it you will inhale a lot, which might explain some of these people) and it has not the properties desired for potting a coil anyway. So, stay safe...but you know...if the most basic of concepts and instructions are beyond you...just don't bother, consider another hobby...learn to play the guitar perhaps.

Yes Paul, I don't know why...but I am so very tired of this.

Gurner...go start you own thread...andronico...go check your sources, and read the beginning of the thread why don't you...and if you really do have the knowledge about glue potted coils...why not partake something useful instead of leading people with false and potentially very harmful leads?

...

If people want proper advice and can follow it...and the tutorials are not enough...

then...I can of course be contacted directly without the peanut gallery and most have found this to be far more beneficial.

If people continue to give bad advice as has been the hallmark here, I will of course attempt to correct it...but clearly this thread has no point and much misleading and simply bad information...and really, no one has even read the first page apparently...even those contributing to it!

[andronico]

PSW : sorry, sorry and sorry.  You are older than me and this is enough to me, my father said me when I was a child than I have to respect older people. I don´t think in your way but really I haven´t anything against you.  Please sorry again.

[psw]

Age has nothing to do with it...stupidity has. Please review your posts in line with the first thread and your advice about burning insulation off off of glue potted coils with a soldering iron and your recommendations of alternative chips for projects you are not familiar with.

You brought up age, knowing full well that such a thing was never an "issue" except in your mind to suggest by that you knew better. You clearly, in this matter, do not...nor did you address any of the concerns that you claim to have experience in from page 1 of this thread, before I ever was alerted to contribute.

I think you can see now, that contrary to your view, and the large number of very knowledgeable people on this forum...the overall and general level is particularly low and so I stand by my original generalization.

I have reported this thread to the moderators as contributions such as yours are OT, pointless, misleading and linked to a known DANGEROUS procedure that has proved also generally not effective.

Please do not assume your experience with DSP or your age which you felt compelled to tell me before all else has any bearing on anything and please, if trying to discuss things in future, refrain from mentioning your age as your primary, initial "qualification" for knowing anything about anything. You must surely know that this is intellectually bankrupt strategy, much like those also here...and your pointless condescending reply.

The OP had already diagnosed himself that exactly what you were advocating was the cause of his problems. Few will have access to "solder thru" winding wire, use of a soldering iron to strip insulation on any wire (would you advocate it on plastic insulated stranded wire too?) is extremely poor advice and unprofessional practice.

If you actually do have knowledge of conductor qualities, it would have, and still may well be nice if you confirmed that wire gauge, number of turns, core and all manner of coil qualities radically change the characteristics of an inductor and it's function in a circuit...and particularly a "circuit" like this where the inductor is the key to producing a driving force at a specific range of frequencies and application.

Think you could manage that?...or does your extensive knowledge of inductors extend only to the bad advice cleared up on the first page or two and in direct contradiction to your own!

[aron]

psw, who are you directing your post to?

[andronico]

Again PSW, sorry. Please.

[psw]

Aron...this thread has deteriorated  and hijacked preventing decent advice to be given.

Poor advice that the OP found to be exactly the problem has been partaken. Condescending referrals to my age, when the person above used it as his main "authority" for burning off wire insulation...and the patent 'stalking' by new member Gurner of me on this thread, mis information...and completely off topic.

Further, linking to known 'rip offs' of my design...include bad circuits and in fact...DANGEROUS PROCEDURES advising the use of CA glue.

All I can do here is defend the original design and correct the massive amounts of poor, mis-guided and potentially dangerous advice and a whole slew of personal attacks and asides...while I attempt to help people with very little experience with a project which I devised and was alerted to come here to answer by the forum itself.

I've also been accused of "ripping off" RoG. The circuit being built and posted by someone else in the tutorial was used with permission and I have no association with it. I have categorically never "ripped off" anyone.

Informed advice can therefore not be given in such an environment and given the appalling history in recent times on this subject at PG...and even here at times in the past to some extent...and I object to this kind of behaviour and targeting of myself apparently as I attempt to help people with something that should be quite simple really.

But...I do find that much of the contributions have been far below the standard expected of such a place, and certainly the continual and now condescending and intellectually bankrupt and potentially dangerous links...to be a disgrace and a personal insult and offensive.

[psw]

Geez, what is it about sustainer threads that gets everyone's panties all up in a bunch?!  

I admire psw's patience. I've read a lot of the original PG thread and even chimed in once in a while. I know he has put a LOT of time and effort into it. And puts up with a lot of BS from naysayers and trolls.  

Some people, who I will leave anonymous but should be obvious to most, just don't know when to stop. I don't like seeing all the mud slinging going on here, it's all very counterproductive, you know?  

I draw your attention to posts like this which know more of the situation in the last 18 months and repeated here, following me to continue from another forum where this kind of thing was closed down largely with over a year of needless stress and convolution.

See also several other posts in this tread including TELEFUNKTON and Peter Moore, long time and respected member who too know more of the history...

I am simply appalled....and so should anyone seeking help with this project, or with an interest in the integrity and reputation of this forum.

[andronico]

Further, linking to known 'rip offs' of my design...include bad circuits and in fact...DANGEROUS PROCEDURES advising the use of CA glue.

But...I do find that much of the contributions have been far below the standard expected of such a place, and certainly the continual and now condescending and intellectually bankrupt and potentially dangerous links...to be a disgrace and a personal insult and offensive.

Sorry about the links, internet is a free world where people show things and put information, sometimes useful and sometimes not.  I didn´t know that these people had ripped off your designs. I´m sorry to hear that.
About if these sites are dangerous, not really, not more dangerous than use a soldering iron in a bad way.  You can damage a finger with a tool like a cutter or something like that if you don´t know how to use it.  The site is not dangerous itself. I don´t like CA glue like you, I prefer hot wax, like pick ups. It´s more safe and more clean too.
The idea to show these links was to give the option to try another circuit than the usual LM386´s one.  If the design of the driver is exactly like yours (I ssume that because it´s ripped from you) better !, people can make one simple driver and test it with three different circuits in order to compare and choose which is better to their taste.  All of us win with this situation !

[deadastronaut]

psw@deadastronaut

I'm sorry, this thread is so out of control I think I am mixing you and Trad3mark up as you are working on similar things...

...

no worries ."..

.......its a great project that inspires passion....
and sometimes heat!...



cheers rob.