Big Muff version to get Korn tone

[caspercody]

Does anyone know what version Big Muff to build to get tone similar to the band Korn?

[caspercody]

What version Big Muff is more high gain distortion?

[kupervaser]

You will never get Korn tone with big muff.
Their tone is most in the tuning and probably bass sound. The guitar doesn't really sound special.

[jkokura]

I think you can get lots of info out on the interweb about Munky and Head's rigs. I imagine the 7 string and amps have a really big part in the sound.

Jacob

[phector2004]

dont they use a 15 string bass or something funky like that?

[petemoore]

  Consider what is outside the box to be at least as important as what is inside.
  Otherwise, Put a jumper or pot across an early emitter resistor...
  Add a second first stage [anything goes, Jfet, BMP stage, LPB, compressor...anything that boosts a little bit.
  Drop the staging capacitor values by some 1/2 or 10x.
  Download Duncans TSC.
  BMP is "like a truck'' four transistors haul all kindsa dirt.
  Starting at Duncans Tonestack Calculator is recommended.

[Scruffie]

I thought I read that Korns Tech modded there Big Muff to be high voltage and use tubes... I think...

Just build an Op-Amp Big Muff and settle for Corgan 

[Derringer]

I do remember reading way way back when, that around the time of their first album, at least one of the guitarists was using a modified Big Muff that was dubbed "the Bigger Muff"

I have no idea what the mods were, but in thinking about the tone they had there, I'd bet that the traditional BMP tone stack was substituted with something completely different or all together bypassed

oh yeah ... and tune WAY down, play through a big amp with lots of speakers. They did use 6 stringers on their first album.

[caspercody]

Thanks everyone! I was kind of thinking there tone comes more from them using 7 string guitars probably tuned down a step or two. I think it is more the lower bass tone they get that I like.

I am thinking the op amp version will get me closer to the distortion side of a Big Muff than the transistor version will. And work around the tone stack to get the low end.

I also like the sound of the Wampler Triple Wreck. I got an email from him saying it is a  op amp based pedal. With five or six gain stages of both inverting and non inverting stages. With a Baxandall ton stack and a twin t filter for mid control. I have the twin t filter schematic he uses, but not sure where to start with the gain stages. I do not think he is using diodes, but not sure. Anyone know of a distortion layout that uses mixed op amp gain stages?

[ghostsauce]

I like Head's sound much better now that he's doing his own thing. For Korn's guitars though, you'll want something with a very tight bottom end. You should be able to pull it off with a Ram's Head... something with a tight bottom line for the low B and with the gain cranked. You'll want a mid scoop too which the muff does pretty good for this stuff.  I have a triangle that I built from BYOC (amazing! you can build a ram's head with it too) and the bottom is too loose to pull this off. I play in drop C and sometimes drop B.   Triangle is not what you want, imho.  Maybe one of the newer muffs too.  After listening to a couple of their songs, it sounds like I'm hearing a distortion most of the time, not fuzz.  Maybe they didn't use the muff for the out in front stuff as much as more ambient tracks.

[anchovie]

I do remember reading way way back when, that around the time of their first album, at least one of the guitarists was using a modified Big Muff that was dubbed "the Bigger Muff"

That was built by Richard Kaplan, the studio engineer. Sepultura also used it on the "Roots" album.

http://home.comcast.net/~loudfast/writeweb/sepul.htm

[jmasciswannabe]

Well, I thought it might be fun and worth a try to send Mr. Kaplan an email. He was kind enough to respond. Check it out!

Hi,
I built the 'Bigger Muff' for Korn and then another one for Sepultura to use on the road.
They were a hybrid of discrete transistors and a single high gain tube distortion stage.
I have no schematic - they were built as a 'breadboard' experimental circuit that worked
so well that everyone wanted to use it for years to follow. I closed and sold the studio a few
years ago.

The original plywood pedal that was used on all the Indigo studio albums went to David Lyons at Sonic Circus.

Best wishes,
Richard

One of my favorite albums, Cold's self titled album, was recorded there by Ross Robinson. I remember reading about the insane pedal collection that was over there. Must have been a good day for David Lyons.

[petemoore]

  yep, 2n5088, or other.
  Goes in first transistor after cap lets the treble through with less impedance, gets boosted.
  Goes in the 2 transistor after sustain, gets boost-o-distort- there, clipping can be high/low, high, or low depending on the diodes, by now the voicing has been multiplied etc.
  3rd transistor gets the hot signal [peaks as large as the diodes let through], and here is where the 'double see saw' of 2 stages of clipping that are assymetric comes. Yes, plenty of added harmonics by now, plenty of fodder for wild myriadic speculatory indescrimanence, way too much going on for communicative discussion, and we didn't even discuss which guitar pickup/size strings for the input yet...aoughhh.
  So...we then have the TC [another fine place to mod], which is by some accounts what the big fuss is about for getting marshmallow or woodbender tones.
  The output stage gets near as much boost as 9v generally delivers 'nicely with bipolar', if your volume knob is ATW up, your preamp sure likes super-hot input, I like it above unity so I can switch it on/off 'nicely'.
  There's a million and 5/3 mods available...thinking outside the box, such as softer clipping/more boost to input.
  Boost level = diode threshold in some ways [sort of the same thing, but then there's of course everything else...like when volume control is turned...everything else changes [a little though, more-boost is a good way to make harder clipping, just as lower-clipping threshold is.
  Assymetric 'balancing'...each clipping stage also inverts so two in a row =...a buncha thinking about if you want say double hard clip on the + peaks, easy on both - peaks, or equal clipping on both sides or...
  Rangemaster type 1rst stage, Jfet output @12v, anything goes, but then, it's not a BMP, they're all different anyway, with 10% tolerance being the average, over [what is it..42 components] many times multiplied/clipped etc., each one sounds different, any one sounds different with X or Y guitar etc.
 
 

[therecordingart]

Well, I thought it might be fun and worth a try to send Mr. Kaplan an email. He was kind enough to respond. Check it out!

Hi,
I built the 'Bigger Muff' for Korn and then another one for Sepultura to use on the road.
They were a hybrid of discrete transistors and a single high gain tube distortion stage.
I have no schematic - they were built as a 'breadboard' experimental circuit that worked
so well that everyone wanted to use it for years to follow. I closed and sold the studio a few
years ago.

The original plywood pedal that was used on all the Indigo studio albums went to David Lyons at Sonic Circus.

Best wishes,
Richard

One of my favorite albums, Cold's self titled album, was recorded there by Ross Robinson. I remember reading about the insane pedal collection that was over there. Must have been a good day for David Lyons.

That was awesome for him to respond! You gonna bust out a breadboard to try creating something similar.

[Derringer]

Well, I thought it might be fun and worth a try to send Mr. Kaplan an email. He was kind enough to respond. Check it out!

Hi,
I built the 'Bigger Muff' for Korn and then another one for Sepultura to use on the road.
They were a hybrid of discrete transistors and a single high gain tube distortion stage.
I have no schematic - they were built as a 'breadboard' experimental circuit that worked
so well that everyone wanted to use it for years to follow. I closed and sold the studio a few
years ago.

The original plywood pedal that was used on all the Indigo studio albums went to David Lyons at Sonic Circus.

Best wishes,
Richard

One of my favorite albums, Cold's self titled album, was recorded there by Ross Robinson. I remember reading about the insane pedal collection that was over there. Must have been a good day for David Lyons.

nice work ... to bad there's no schem
but I bet he remembers some of the particulars

[Brymus]

A single high gain tube stage > Hmmmmm is that a 12AX7 or maybe an EF86 ?
High gain implies to me an EF86 or the like.
Try high gain trannies in a modded BMP and run into a top boost type tube stage,tweak caps to shape the low end to your liking.
If you have a software amp/pedal simulator (Native) you could try it virtually then go to your breadboard.
First I would find what amp was used for the sound your after then decide how much gain the extra tube stage needs to add.
Would they have needed the extra tube stage had they used an SLO100 or Krankenstien ?

[defaced]

First I would find what amp was used for the sound your after then decide how much gain the extra tube stage needs to add.
Would they have needed the extra tube stage had they used an SLO100 or Krankenstien ?

The extra gain is to kill the tone and basically make it fart out (sorta).  You can really hear this well on Sepultura's Roots album.  Korn was using Rectos which are more or less (at least the early ones) copies of the SLO100 OD channel with a few tweaks.  I would go so far as to say tuning to A and a Recto is 90% of their sound. 

This is their rig from 97, which is the Life is Peachy era. 
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/349/
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/350/

And this is their rig from 99, Follow the Leader era.
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/519/
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/518/

I know the images are of a 3ch recto, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that.  Korn's first album cam out in 95, which was long before the 3ch versions came out.  So the questions is, which Korn guitar tone does the OP want?  They've made a couple of albums and their guitar sound has changed alot over that time, though the core of it has been a Recto and tuning to A. 

[therecordingart]

First I would find what amp was used for the sound your after then decide how much gain the extra tube stage needs to add.
Would they have needed the extra tube stage had they used an SLO100 or Krankenstien ?

The extra gain is to kill the tone and basically make it fart out (sorta).  You can really hear this well on Sepultura's Roots album.  Korn was using Rectos which are more or less (at least the early ones) copies of the SLO100 OD channel with a few tweaks.  I would go so far as to say tuning to A and a Recto is 90% of their sound.  

This is their rig from 97, which is the Life is Peachy era.  
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/349/
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/350/

And this is their rig from 99, Follow the Leader era.
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/519/
http://guitargeek.com/rigview/518/

I know the images are of a 3ch recto, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that.  Korn's first album cam out in 95, which was long before the 3ch versions came out.  So the questions is, which Korn guitar tone does the OP want?  They've made a couple of albums and their guitar sound has changed alot over that time, though the core of it has been a Recto and tuning to A.  

It's hard for me to trust the Guitar Geek site because they've been dead wrong on a few. Dimebag being a big one that sticks out which was confirmed by Grady Champion (Dime's tech).

http://guitargeek.com/rigview/415/

The Warheads were only used for the clean channel, and the RG100 was doing all of the heavy lifting combined with an MXR EQ. The MXR flanger/doubler is an integral part of his sound, but it's nowhere in the diagram.

[petemoore]

  nice work ... to bad there's no schem
  If you had a schematic, you could make 10, they'd all be at least a little different, all right/none right, depending on perspective, but then..the value of...has to be changed in order to fully...
  Build 1, try to figure out what it doesn't do, and if it can be made to do it.

[Derringer]

I need to listen to their first album again, but I don't recall their tone having as much scoop as the BMP tonestack usually yields
the sound I remember is real crunchy, thick with good palm mutting sound

If I were doing this, I start with a stock BMP on a breadboard and run a guitar tuned to A (or B or wtf they used) through it and first start playing with the input and output caps to get the bass right.

Then I imagine I'd bypass the tone control to see how that sounded ... because I think their tone has more midrange than not

Then some different diode setups ... like LED's or something to make it crunchier