Custom Switch Box

[mr. mügatu]

So, I posted a few days ago looking for a diagram for an effects loop and a killswitch. I got some great direction from liddokun to some stuff I missed at beavisaudio.com.

The diagrams on the beavisaudio website are great, since I'm such a wiring noob, they show you in plain English how to do it, which I love.

Basically, I run a two amp setup, using a separate pedalboard for each one, and I need to be able to switch between muting A or B, and effects on/off for each path, independently, and on the fly, so a typical A/B, or A/B/Y box won't work for what I need.

So after all the digging, searching around, and posting on various forums, I figured out that what I need exactly is four pedals; two effects loops, and two killswitches plus a splitter box to start it all off.

But when I was about to order all the parts to build this stuff, I thought there must be a way to put all of that, less the splitter, into one box.

I drew something up real quick, illustrating this box, The only thing is that I have no idea how to wire it up. Here it is.




So what I am asking is if someone could provide me with come kind of simplified diagram for something like this similar to the ones on beavisaudio

there would be an LED for each switch.

ALSO: I didn't realize until after I scanned the drawing, but the "mute all" switch should be a mute, out to tuner

As always, any help, or direction is very much appreciated. I know there are a ton of really skilled people on here that love doing stuff like this, so thanks in advance!

[MikeH]

I think a little more info will be helpful;  First- are the A and B components independent?  I mean, does input A go into loop A, and then out ouput A and never touch B?  (Except you probably want them both to work with the tuner out).  or is it that you're switching between inputs and they each use both loops, and then go out through their respective outputs?

[MikeH]

Also - is this a situation where you use both channels independently, or do you use them at the same time?  If it's only one at a time, you could have a switch that just toggles back and forth between muting one or the other, so you don't have to tapdance on 2 switches when switching back and forth.

[mr. mügatu]

Sorry, Yes, the A path is completely separate from the B path. It goes:

Input A>Loop A>Mute A>Tuner Out>Out A

Input B>Loop B>Mute B>Tuner Out>Out B

And yeah, if that's possible, Tuner out should work with both A and B simultaneously.

Basically, I'm only using one signal, run into a 2-way splitter, into this board, into two amps.

Mostly, I will be using both channels at the same time. And, I think the only way I can do what I need to do is by sometimes hitting two switches at the same time, which I can deal with if I have to.

The main reason why a toggle switch won't work for me is because sometimes i need to go from both, to just A, other times, both, to just B

[MikeH]

Got it.

So here's your Beavis Loop diagram:



And you're basically just going to put 2 of them in one box, each just doing it's own thing.  You can share the same ground and the same 9V+ for LEDs if you're using them.  As far as muting each channel goes, there's a few ways to do it.  I'd first try a SPST switch that connects the output of each channel to ground.  That will mute that channel entirely, and will cut off any noise that may be generated by any effects that are in the chain.  If you have delay in you loop that you want to tail off, and don't mind the noise you can ground the input. 

How are you splitting the signal?  Are you doing it passively, or do you have a pedal that does stereo out?  i wouldn't recommend going the passive route, it will really deaden your signal.  A buffered splitter is a much better way to go.

For the tuner out, it would actually be much easier to just put it on whichever channel you use most.  You'll just have to make sure that you have that channel unmuted to tune.

[mr. mügatu]

How are you splitting the signal?  Are you doing it passively, or do you have a pedal that does stereo out?  i wouldn't recommend going the passive route, it will really deaden your signal.  A buffered splitter is a much better way to go.

Well, I was planning on buying a Loop Master splitter box, which I'm pretty sure is passive. I do have a couple pedals that have stereo outs, but they need to be in effects loop A.

For the tuner out, it would actually be much easier to just put it on whichever channel you use most.  You'll just have to make sure that you have that channel unmuted to tune.

The only thing about that is that I'm using both channels together pretty much all the time, and I wanted to also be able to use it as a master on/off for everything. so would I just solder all like colors together into the tuner out replicating one input?

And you're basically just going to put 2 of them in one box, each just doing it's own thing.  You can share the same ground and the same 9V+ for LEDs if you're using them.  As far as muting each channel goes, there's a few ways to do it.  I'd first try a SPST switch that connects the output of each channel to ground.  That will mute that channel entirely, and will cut off any noise that may be generated by any effects that are in the chain.  If you have delay in you loop that you want to tail off, and don't mind the noise you can ground the input. 

So, for example, to put a killswitch in front of this, would I just take the hot/ground out of the looper as an input into the killswitch, and just go from there?
And, for what Beavis Audio calls a stutter switch, how would I replace the SPST for a 3PDT?

A lot of this stuff is REALLY confusing to me, so I'm sorry if I'm being difficult at all. Thanks for the support!

[MikeH]

How are you splitting the signal?  Are you doing it passively, or do you have a pedal that does stereo out?  i wouldn't recommend going the passive route, it will really deaden your signal.  A buffered splitter is a much better way to go.

Well, I was planning on buying a Loop Master splitter box, which I'm pretty sure is passive. I do have a couple pedals that have stereo outs, but they need to be in effects loop A.

Is it this? http://www.loop-master.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=170&osCsid=icshu05lau382lrt2ji3vr8e63

Because I wouldn't buy that- It looks like it's just a passive splitter and you could build one yourself and it would about a billion times easier than the rest of this thing you're trying to build.

[mr. mügatu]

How are you splitting the signal?  Are you doing it passively, or do you have a pedal that does stereo out?  i wouldn't recommend going the passive route, it will really deaden your signal.  A buffered splitter is a much better way to go.

Well, I was planning on buying a Loop Master splitter box, which I'm pretty sure is passive. I do have a couple pedals that have stereo outs, but they need to be in effects loop A.

Is it this? http://www.loop-master.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=170&osCsid=icshu05lau382lrt2ji3vr8e63

Because I wouldn't buy that- It looks like it's just a passive splitter and you could build one yourself and it would about a billion times easier than the rest of this thing you're trying to build.

Haha. Yeah, that's the one. How would I wire one of those?

I pretty much figured out how to completely wire an effects loop, and a mute switch. Now I just need to figure out how to merge them into one box. Am I right about just continuing the circuit in order to nicely merge the fx loop into the mute? The only thing I'm not sure about now is the tuner out.

[MikeH]

I can't be sure without seeing inside one, but I'm pretty sure it's just the tip of the one jack wired directly to the other 2; sleeves connected too.  This isn't the best way to split a signal.  Just do a search through the forum for "buffered splitter" and see if it seems like something you want to tackle.  It usually involves a single IC (dual opamp) and a couple of caps and resistors.  Pretty simple and a good beginning project if you new to building circuit boards.

As for the pedal in general, I would do a single input, with the tuner mute connected to that (which would wire up like a A/B switch- input goes to center of the switch, one throw is connected to the tuner out, the other goes to the rest of the box) which would act as a master mute.  Then from there I'd wire up a splitter (you could go passive, but I'd research something buffered) which would go to each loop, and have your mute for each channel either at the send or return for each loop, depending on the factors I mentioned above.  If you go the passive route, you can't do the muting by connecting the signal to ground, because the 2 paths are hard wired together at the input, and you'll possibly mute the whole thing- depending on which loops are open and what is in them etc etc - just trust me) so you'll just have to wire a switch to break the signal path.  And doing it this way will mean you'll need to wire some 1M pulldown resistors otherwise you'll get popping when you mute/unmute the channels.  Actually, I always put pulldown resistors on my sends and returns in bypass loops anyway because some commercial pedals can cause popping when their inputs/outputs are left hanging by true bypass switching.  Even with pulldown resistors you may still get popping, so one more reason to go buffered split.  If this is still confusing I can draw up a block diagram for you, but you should take a stab at it first.

That might be a lot to digest - trust me on the buffered split though. 

[mr. mügatu]

I can't be sure without seeing inside one, but I'm pretty sure it's just the tip of the one jack wired directly to the other 2; sleeves connected too.  This isn't the best way to split a signal.  Just do a search through the forum for "buffered splitter" and see if it seems like something you want to tackle.  It usually involves a single IC (dual opamp) and a couple of caps and resistors.  Pretty simple and a good beginning project if you new to building circuit boards.

As for the pedal in general, I would do a single input, with the tuner mute connected to that (which would wire up like a A/B switch- input goes to center of the switch, one throw is connected to the tuner out, the other goes to the rest of the box) which would act as a master mute.  Then from there I'd wire up a splitter (you could go passive, but I'd research something buffered) which would go to each loop, and have your mute for each channel either at the send or return for each loop, depending on the factors I mentioned above.  If you go the passive route, you can't do the muting by connecting the signal to ground, because the 2 paths are hard wired together at the input, and you'll possibly mute the whole thing- depending on which loops are open and what is in them etc etc - just trust me) so you'll just have to wire a switch to break the signal path.  And doing it this way will mean you'll need to wire some 1M pulldown resistors otherwise you'll get popping when you mute/unmute the channels.  Actually, I always put pulldown resistors on my sends and returns in bypass loops anyway because some commercial pedals can cause popping when their inputs/outputs are left hanging by true bypass switching.  Even with pulldown resistors you may still get popping, so one more reason to go buffered split.  If this is still confusing I can draw up a block diagram for you, but you should take a stab at it first.

That might be a lot to digest - trust me on the buffered split though. 

Right on. I'm def going to take a stab at a buffered splitter. I'll let you know if I can't find anything on it. I think what I might do, is either get two double foootswitches, and make an effects loop with mute for each channel, or find a four button footswitch and put both in one box, forget the whole tuner out deal, and just use my boss tuner pedal before the splitter in order to mute the whole signal; thus avoiding any complications, translating into mistakes by me haha.

So, where would I put the pulldown resistors? in the effects loop, or the killswitch?

Also, should I just skip out on  the LED's altogether? I've heard that they cause a lot of popping with the 3PDT switches. Is this true? not to mention, not using LED's makes for a much more noob friendly circuit.

[MikeH]

I just wire 1M resistors across the solder lugs of the send and return jacks from tip to sleeve. 

LEDs can cause popping, using a higher value resistor to wire them up will help with popping from current (4k7 to 10k will work).  You could always use 3pdt switches right now, and leave the LEDS off and add the LEDs later if you want them.  I'd say if you have a box with as many as 4 switches on it, things could get confusing without LEDs.  But thats just me.

[mr. mügatu]

Ok, so how can I successfully merge this: http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/PedalHacker/LooperWithLED.gif . with this: http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/StutterPedal/Guitar_Stutter_Switch_Simple.gif . and adding an LED to the mute, making one circuit that I can fit into an enclosure? The layout for the looper says to use a 2k-5k resistor, but I should go higher to help eliminate popping?

[MikeH]

Well, which enclosure are you using?  They make some pretty big ones so, size might or might not be an issue. 

If you look at the diagram for the "stutter" pedal, you'll see that it is simply a single switch that connects the signal path (red wire) to ground.  You can put this anywhere in the signal path you want.  Looking at the loop diagram we can see the signal path there as well (Pink wire from input to the switch and the red wire from the switch to the output.  Blue and yellow wires are the send and return for the loop, and are technically signal wires- but you dont want the mute along there, because it will only work if the loop is engaged).  So anywhere along that signal path, you can put your mute switch.  If you put it before the send, it will allow delays from the loop to tail off after you press the mute switch.  If you put it after it will silence any noise coming from the loop from distortions, compressors, phasers, etc.

Now, if you want an LED to indicate if a channel is muted, you'll need to use a different switch.  The switch in the beavis diagram is a SPST swith, meaning it has a single pole, and a single set of contacts that are either open or closed.  If you want an LED you'll have to get a DPDT   or DPST switch, the "DP" meaning it has 2 poles.  It's like 2 switches in one.  One to control the muting connection and the other the switch the LED on and off.  Note: if you want the siwtch to indicate a channel is muted you'll solder the LED connections on the same side of the switch as the wires for the mute-control, so that when the mute is connected the LED is connected too.  If you want it to indicate it is "on" or not-muted than you hook up the LED on the opposite side of the switch, so that the LED is connected when the mute is disconnected.

As far as popping goes; using a low-value current limiting resistor doesn't mean a pedal will pop.  In a looper which is totally passive it probably matters even less.  I'd go with something around 5k and see what it does.  Here's what definitely WILL make a switch pop:   Overheating the switch when soldering it.  The contacts inside are greased and excess heat liqueifies the grease and makes it run away from the contacts, the result is a noisy click when the contacts engage.  So before you solder you switch double check your connections (You don't want to have to desolder them later - that definitely mucks up the contacts) and solder them as quickly as possible.  This is one of the toughest things to get down, and it is pretty easy to down right ruin a switch entirely with too much heat.  And that is really frustrating.

[mr. mügatu]

Well, which enclosure are you using?  They make some pretty big ones so, size might or might not be an issue. 

I've been having a little bit of trouble finding the right size for the right price, but I think I've made my mind up on using a four switch box. I think it will be a lot more portable, less awkward, and take up less space on my board.

If you put it before the send, it will allow delays from the loop to tail off after you press the mute switch.

I think that's the way I'm going to do it. Plus it should make for much less noticeable switch-offs.

Now, if you want an LED to indicate if a channel is muted, you'll need to use a different switch.  The switch in the beavis diagram is a SPST swith, meaning it has a single pole, and a single set of contacts that are either open or closed.  If you want an LED you'll have to get a DPDT   or DPST switch, the "DP" meaning it has 2 poles.  It's like 2 switches in one.  One to control the muting connection and the other the switch the LED on and off.  Note: if you want the siwtch to indicate a channel is muted you'll solder the LED connections on the same side of the switch as the wires for the mute-control, so that when the mute is connected the LED is connected too.  If you want it to indicate it is "on" or not-muted than you hook up the LED on the opposite side of the switch, so that the LED is connected when the mute is disconnected.

I was actually looking to have the LED to indicate that the channel was on. is that wierd? do most people use the LED to show that it's muted? On the Beavis diagram for the looper, is that wired so the LED shows that the effects are bypassed?




So, I basically understand all of it now, thanks to you, sir. I just have one more question. Do you think you could just draw up in paint or something real fast, the back of DPST switch, showing which wire from what should go where if I were to put it before the send, and wanted the LED to show it was not muted?

Also, if the LED on the Beavis looper diagram is wired to show it is bypassed, which lug should I solder the reisistor to, in order to show it is on?

Sorry for all the super noob-a$$ questions, and thanks soooooooo much for the help, it is very much appreciated. Thanks!!

[MikeH]

Are you buying a predrilled box?  Can you post a link to what you're planning on using?  if you get a box made for 4 bypass loops you'll end up with some extra holes on it

I was actually looking to have the LED to indicate that the channel was on. is that wierd? do most people use the LED to show that it's muted?

I don't think many people do this, so which ever way you want it is 'normal'. 

On the Beavis diagram for the looper, is that wired so the LED shows that the effects are bypassed?

The beavis looper shows the LED wired to indicate the loop is 'on'.  So, not bypassed.

So, I basically understand all of it now, thanks to you, sir. I just have one more question. Do you think you could just draw up in paint or something real fast, the back of DPST switch, showing which wire from what should go where if I were to put it before the send, and wanted the LED to show it was not muted?

Actually now that I think of it, you can use a SPDT switch for this, and rather easily too.  Looking at the switch in the 'stutter' diagram, you'll see it is represented as a tall blue rectangle with 2 lugs.  This is an SPST switch.  If it were an SPDT switch there would be another lug in the lower portion of that blue rectangle.  And the contacts alternate between the top 2 and bottom 2 when you step on the switch.  Since the bottom lug (now the middle lug if we imagine it as a SPDT) is already connected to ground, we can use that connection to light the LED when the switch is in the lower, non-muted, position.  So take that lower lug (the one we are imagining in our mind) and connect it to a resistor, then to the (-) side of the LED, with the other side connected to 9v+.  When the switch is in the 'mute' position the LED will be off.  When the switch is unmuted, the center lug on the switch will ground the LED, instead of the signal.  The LED will light, indicating the channel is on.

Easy as pie.

Side notes:

1- Read this: http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=DIY_FAQ#TRUE_BYPASS_AND_SWITCHING (and the links in that section- especially the geofex one) as well as this: http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/Switches/ to know more about switches/switching.

2- The beavis stutter diagram calls more a momentary switch.  This means that when you step on it the switch opens or closes, and when you take your foot off it goes back to the way it was.  This is different from a latching switch, which means it's in one position, you step on it and it goes to another.  Then you step on it again and it goes back.  You probably want a latching switch from what you've written.  Otherwise you'd have to hold down the switch to keep it muted or unmuted.  Which would be obnoxious.

3-

Also, if the LED on the Beavis looper diagram is wired to show it is bypassed, which lug should I solder the reisistor to, in order to show it is on?

As I mentioned the LED is wired to indicate that the loop is on, but if you wanted to switch it, you just would have to move the resistor connection from the upper lug to the lower lug (the only lug that in unoccupied in the diagram).  That would make the LED light when the switch is in the opposite direction.

4- You can put the resistor anywhere you want in the LED path.  IOW, it can go between the LED and ground, or between the LED and 9v+.  Which ever makes the wiring job easier.  It just has to be in series.  Don't put it parallel unless you want to see/smell an LED burn up.

Good luck.

[mr. mügatu]

Are you buying a predrilled box?  Can you post a link to what you're planning on using?  if you get a box made for 4 bypass loops you'll end up with some extra holes on it

I was either thinking of using something like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Randall-4-button-footswitch-/280516317286?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4150135066 , and drilling it out for all the jacks, but they are a little expensive.

Or something like this, maybe not as deep; would be ideal: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Naudio/Amp%20Selector/Ampselector1.jpg , but totally blank

Do you happen to know anywhere I can get an enclosure like that for cheap? I know I'll find something, I'm just having a little bit of a hard time finding one right now.

I'm just looking for something cheap.

So take that lower lug (the one we are imagining in our mind)

Hahahaha, I was reading along, came up on that part, and just lost it..  ... Too good

You probably want a latching switch from what you've written.

Yeah, latching would be best. And yeah, momentary would be totally obnoxious haha.



Thanks for all the tips and links and stuff. I couldn't ask for more detailed help. Thank you thank you thank you!

[MikeH]

That first link (randall) will woould fine- you'll have to drill holes for the jacks obviously.  I wouldn't pay $50 for one though. The second one would leave you with extra holes.  If you can do the drilling yourself, I'd just go with a D sized enclosure like so:

http://www.pedalpartsplus.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PPP&Product_Code=1300&Category_Code=ENC15

They do painting and drilling there as well.  With 4 switches you'll have a couple inches between the footswitches and plenty of room on the back for jacks.  Unfortunately large enclosures are never "cheap".  I've salvaged some large enclosures from network boxes and fax routers etc from work though.  Maybe check your local reuse/salvation army type store?  Universities usually have a "property disposition" where they sell all of their old computers and other gizmos, so if there's a university near you, you might check that too.  I find the occasional gem there too.

[mr. mügatu]

That pedalsparts is the perfect height and depth, it's just a little short for me. I did, however come across this earlier, and I think it's the one I'm going to settle on. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8063034

It's a little tall, but tolerable. Plus it's a good length, and not too expensive.

I can't wait to finally get this project rolling!

[MikeH]

Perfect size and not too pricey.  Nice.

[.Mike]

I did, however come across this earlier, and I think it's the one I'm going to settle on. http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=8063034

I just want to point out that the enclosure you linked to is 0.04" thick, or roughly 1 millimeter. It may be too thin for stomping.

Additionally... the datasheet states that it does not include hardware, which must be ordered separately (#1421J6, $4.20).

And... you'll also have to buy a bottom plate to make it fully enclosed, (#1434-18, $8.61).

Plus... you'll have to drill the enclosure in order to attach the bottom plate.

Your $16.14 enclosure just went up to $28.95. Sorry about that... 

Mike