delay before overdriven amp

[MmmPedals]

I love using a delay to add "space" to my sound. I leave it on all the time for leads (think Eric Johnson).
But i find that a delayed signal into a dirty amp sounds like hdfvbkwfdjvbksdfv. The delayed signal hitting the amp breaks up seperately and sound like a mess. I have to use a pedal before the delay.
Just curious if this is specific to my setup (rebote delay-> hot rod deluxe) and is there a way to cure it?

[space_ryerson]

Does the hot rod deluxe have an fx loop? If so, try using the delay there.

I personally like putting delay before an overdriven amp for some things, but use much more modest settings (less delay fx level, less feedback) in that situation.

[Rodgre]

The Hot Rod deluxe does have an effects loop. That'll solve your problem.

I too, love the sound of delay-before-distortion for many things, but I know that's not what most people tend to go for. I end up with an analog delay on my pedalboard, before my distortions, for the noisy out of control stuff and a Line 6 DL4 at the tail end before the amp for cleaner, ambient stuff, though my amp is usually pushed to break up a bit as well.

Roger

[Ben N]

The ideal is to have a separate amp for your delays (think Brian May, EJ, Gilmour). Not a practical solution for most people, I know, but that might inform your approach. FX loop is a compromise (just as drive channels in amps are a compromise, trying to make an overdriven 12ax7 sound like a saturated power amp), but it may be a perfectly usable one. I always thought it would be fun to build a delay slave for my combo amp, replicating the power amp with minimal gain at the input just to match signal levels, and matching cab/speaker. Still, it would be a lot more to have to shlep for essentially the same volume level.

[R.G.]

Yep, you have found a problem.

This is the line of thinking that I first saw in a Craig Anderton article, that doing distortion after time delay pedals is self defeating. The distortion makes hash out of your delayed sound. There's only one good solution to this - don't distort (at least, not much) after you do time delay if you like the sound of the delay. It pretty much means that you play your final amp clean, making the previously prepared delayed sound louder. It's the classic rationale for miking a small amp into the PA, and a contradiction in the idea that a guitar amp is a part of the whole instrument.

[Mark Hammer]

Personally, I think the solution is to split output early in the signal chain, and feed the wet output of whatever delay pedal is in use to a receive jack on the amp.  That way, the dry signal can go through whatever contortions you want in the pedal chain, or amp front end, and be mixed in clean with the mutated signal.  Sadly, not all pedals let you dial in wet otput level, and not all amps let you use the receive jack as a footswitchable mixing node.

[ayayay!]

Not to sound like a d*ck, but I thought it was common knowledge that delay had to come before dist/od if you wanted the trails to be distorted as well. 

I will admit though:  Because of delay (and delay alone) I ended up revamping everything in my thought process on my pedalboard/amp setup.  I no longer ever use the Dist/OD channel(s) on my amp unless it's 100% dry with no other effects, save for maybe a compressor.

I prefer all my Dist/OD/Dirt and other effects to be on the board, and into the clean channel of the amp.  I don't like FX loops because of a) more cables and b) they still don't sound right to me on most all amps. 

Plus, it forces me to make the pedals on the board to sound that much better.   

[anchovie]

I thought it was common knowledge that delay had to come before dist/od if you wanted the trails to be distorted as well. 

Last time I checked, if you run a distorted signal into a delay the trails don't magically become clean!

[deadastronaut]

I thought it was common knowledge that delay had to come before dist/od if you wanted the trails to be distorted as well. 

Last time I checked, if you run a distorted signal into a delay the trails don't magically become clean!

lol..


hmmmmm.... i would never have a delay before distortion...what a messy sound that would give...

whatever floats ya boat i guess...then again i only use a clean channel amp with pedals.........

[Mark Hammer]

Because the level of the signal, and consequent "proximity to clip" declines shortly after picking, the intensity of any distortion you produce can be regulated with your picking hand.  When one uses delays that are not spaces very far apart, and repeats generated become part of the overall signal fed to any distortion immediately after, and the distinction between the distortion you intend (with your picking hand), and the distortion you don't intend, is reduced.  Of course, if the delay is set for 2 seconds, and you aren't picking a lot of notes, then the distinction is preserved.  But if you're using an MN3205/MN3005-based delay that won't permit more than 350-400msec of delay, the odds are increased that any distortion following the delay will smoosh your picked and repeated notes together, and produce clipping that has less "feel" to it.

All of which is to say that delay->distortion is more likely to get you indiscriminate mush than distortion->delay is.

Is there a downside to distortion->delay?  Yes.  Since there are real limits to how much signal a delay pedal can handle and still avoid clipping in its own way, you generally can't dime a distortion pedal placed ahead of a delay, whereas you CAN dime one if it follows.

[Fender56]

I think it depends of the application and what sound you want to acheive.

I really prefer my analog delay BEFORE the OD (well, a slight crunch out of a DB-2) for a slapback/rockabilly kind of tone (think Brad Paisley). The delay is more present/strong, more organic, not washed away.

But if I increase the OD level, then it sound mushy and not very pleasant. So I have a digital delay placed in my FX-loop for longer delay and to be used with heavier distortion.

[Brymus]

I think its best to split the signal at the begining and use a smaller SS amp for delay ,reverb,ect
Keep the dirty path going to your tube or main amp and the time mangled effects going to another smaller amp.
This is of course more work,in a live situation you can run your time based effects into the mixer or PA and use a seperate volume pedal to control it from onstage,so your not hauling two amps around.
Its all about how much you need/use the time effects and how picky you are over your sound.
I have known guys that use two different rigs on stage for OD and clean,or two for stereo,or two for what I explained in the beginning.
One guitarist I used to hang out with kept an SS power amp(think PA or multi use) on his full stack for his vocals and digital effects.
So he had his full stack behind him and two JBL monitors off his SS amp on either side of the stage on stands(next to the main PA monitors for the other vocals and drums),it did sound sweet dialed in.(he wanted to be sure he could turn himself up seperate from the main PA)
(it took them forever to soundcheck...)

[deadastronaut]

(it took them forever to soundcheck...)

yeah i bet...........lol...