Insanity Box problems

[Uriziel]

Hello,

I chose the Insanity box by Aron and Jack to be my first project. I'm a fairly noob in electronics. Learning as i go along.
I successfully built the PCB using UV and i have all the components installed. It doesn't work as it is supposed to.

I used this thread as my base - http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75998.0

i got the schematic from this site and used the PCB inlay from this site aswell - http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/schematics.html



I hope this will help you to see what's the problem

1.What does it do, not do, and sound like?
when i turn it on the bypass is there but i get a kind of sound in adition with it. It's like when you first turn on your amp and then plug in your guitar. When i turn the effect on i don't get any distortion sound. When i turn off the tone pot everything is quiet. when i turn on the tone pot i get the same sound when it is bypassed, except the sound of my clean signal. When i turn on the gain i get some sort of quiet barely noticeabel chirpy sound...

2.Name of the circuit
Insanity Box by Aron Nelson

3.Source of the circuit (URL of schematic or project)
http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/schematics.html

4.Any modifications to the circuit?
Yes, put a biasing pot like in the thread i took as my base to build this stompbox

5.Any parts substitutions?
I used a 0,022 uF instead of 0,02 and i used a 1 UF instead of 1,1 uF and i used MPF102 transistors. And yes i checked the leads and put them like they are suposed to be on the PCB. IC is HCF4049UBE, OpAmp is TL071CN, Diodes are 1N914

6.Positive ground to negative ground conversion?
i think no

7.What is the out of circuit battery voltage? => 8.58v

Voltage at the circuit board end of the red battery lead = 8.58v

Voltage at the circuit board end of the black battery lead = 0v

Now, using the original schematic as a reference for which part is which (that is, which transistor is Q1, Q2, etc. and which IC is IC1, IC2, C1, and so on) measure and list the voltage on each pin of every transistor and IC. Just keep the black lead on ground, and touch the pointed end of the red probe to each one in turn. Report the voltages as follows:

Q1 MPF102
D = 6.23v
G = 0.01v
S = 2.02v

Q2 MPF102
D = 8.58
G = 2.82
S = 6.23

TL071CN
P1 8.56v
P2 8.10v
P3 8.09v
P4 0v
p5 8.56v
P6 6.03v
P7 8.58v
P8 0v


HCF4049UBE
P1 6.95v
P2 5.91v
P3 2.28v
P4 0v
P5 6.95v
P6 0v
P7 6.95v
P8 0v
P9 6.95v
P10 0v
P11 6.95v
P12 0v
P13 0v
P14 2.64v
P15 2.28v
P16 0v

D1
A (anode, the non-band end) = 0v
K (cathode, the banded end) = 0v

D2
A = 0v
K = 0v

In addition:
Input I - 0v
A - 8.10v
B - 6.03v
Y - 0v
X - 0v

Some pictures too:




Thank you in advance. I hope you can help me
Juho

[chromesphere]

Hi Uriziel,

Unfortunately, im not very good with the electronics side of things, nor do i have an insanity box, so i cant tell you if your readings are correct or not.

Just some general advice, you may have already done this, but here goes anyway:

The first thing i would suggest is using a magnifying glass check for cracks in the tracks (if you havent already).  They can be very small. I usually do this before the components are added, as its easy to check when the tracks are disconnected, using a multimeter in continuity mode.

I would also use a knife to cut between the tracks lightly, to make absolutely sure there is no connection between the pads.  You have done a good soldering job, but i find sometimes theres a solder bridge, the size of a hair connecting 2 pads thats ruining the fun.

Only other thing i can suggest is to check the pinout of the IC / trannies, make sure they are the right way around, and if you have a spare, swap it over to make sure its not faulty.  Which brings me to another suggestion: use sockets for your IC's and Transistors.  Its not often you have a faulty one, desoldering an IC thats the wrong way around is a bit of a pain.

I usually test the board on its on with alligator clips and a 9v batt before i wire up the jacks, footswtich etc.  If the board is behaving itself, i then start working on the enclosure and then wire it up inside the box. If i have problems, its usually on the board, so i test that first before adding another layer of complexity to mix. Not going to help you with this build, but might help you with future ones.

9 times out of 10 i find its a solder bridge that i cant see.  But then my soldering is pretty messy

Its discouraging when this stuff doesnt work, but hang in there! Its worth the effort!

Just some noob advice here, hope it helps you all the same!

CS

[jasperoosthoek]

It's a shame you didn't use sockets for the ICs. Especially if you are inexperienced with electronics or even if you are you should always use them on new build no matter what. I'm sorry if that sounds a bit patronizing but as I have grown more experienced I haven't stopped making mistakes  . I've just become better in dealing with them.

I had great trouble getting the HCF4049UBE to work in the UBE Screamer (from Run Off Groove). I get the reals CD4049UBEs in the mail today, they will plug right in the socket. Still the voltages on your the inverter seem ok so that should not the problem in your circuit.

The voltages of the TL071 are not right: Pin 3 should be around 4.5 volts or Vref. Right now that part of the circuit does not work and probably blocks all signal. Can you check the Vref voltages across the 22uF cap? (other side of 470k resistor. That one should be 4.5V too.

Maybe you can put solder on all of your copper traces. This way you are sure there is no faulty connection.

[Uriziel]

I resoldered everything today. just heated up the tin and let it cool again. I checked if there are some soldered parts touching. i found none. I went into town today and got some socket for the chips. Took some time to get them out put it wasn't impossible. But still i get the same results. Voltage is zero around the input. I get negative current though. The voltage is zero also near the tl071 in some parts. The third pin shows me 8.58 so no change there. I don't understand what is the problem. even if the voltages in opamp section are incorrect, I should still see some kind of voltages near the input. I see none. It would be really nice if I could understand the problem. Next week i try to get another tl071 chip. This week i've been asked to be a replacement lead guitarist so i have other things more important right now. It would be nice to get that box working though. Seems like it's the roght kind of sound that i'm looking for...

Thanks for your replys and your suggestions. they for sure aren't going to be heard by deaf ears

[tiges_ tendres]

Have you adjusted the trim pots at all?

[jasperoosthoek]

The voltages are seriously wrong around the TL071. That one just doesn't work. So that's the first thing to look at before you go any further. Who knows the rest maybe working fine .

What are the voltages on the socket if you take the TL071 chip out? (now you can, nice). They important ones should be:

P2 0v
P3 4.5v (+/- 0.2 volts or so)
P6 0v

[Uriziel]

Hey

I got it working finally. I just replaced the tl071 chip and everything was good. This one has one hell of a sound. And it's loud. Allmost makes me feel, there's a tube inside. I still have some problems though. I get the occasional barely noticeable chirpy sound no matter how i adjust the trims. I got it to a degree that you can hear it only when listening to it. And i have major grounding problem. i just soldered all the grounding wires together and it doesn't matter what i do, i have this constant grounding noise coming from the pedal. Since i'm fairly a noob. i don't know if its because of some wrong resistor or cap or it's the wires themselves, or i've soldered some grounds together that shouldn't be together. Also the bypassed sound is considerably quieter than the effects sound.

But awesome pedal, i like the sound very much so far. It could have more fluidity to the sound but all in all, no complaints.

Thanks to everyone who helped. Now if i could just get rid of that grounding noise...

[Hides-His-Eyes]

All the grounds should be connected together...

[jasperoosthoek]

Congratulations! I don't know how 'silent' this pedal is supposed to be. I haven't built it. But with so much gain in there any hum or noise is bound to get loud. Have you tried connecting it to a single power supply or battery? I would highly recommend not connecting this with more effects boxed to the same supply.

You place a noise gate after the effect (MXR Noise Gate from tonepad.com). But as your noise floor is very high this creates some problems in setting the threshold of the gate. But a noise gate basically has two inputs: The signal you want to be gated and the signal that drives the trigger circuit. In normal gates these are just connected internally. The trigger part you could connect directly to the guitar (or a buffered version of the clean guitar signal). This makes the gating much more effective. So basically you take the clean signal to trigger the dirty signal.

[Uriziel]

It's not exactly hum coming from the effect. That sound is present even when the effect is bypassed. It's more like when you plug in your guitar after you have turned your amp on. You get that kind of sound. I don't know the adjective to describe the sound. It's constant. So it must be the grounding. i can try it in different outlets too. see what happens. But yeah, the sound is too high to be hum. bypassed, it even is higher than my clean sound... so there must be something else wrong...

[jasperoosthoek]

I think it is 'just' noise that you naturally get when you place so many distortion effects in a chain. It's basically three distortion effects in one box. I wouldn't expect anything less. Try switching on all your other distortion boxes at the same time (if you have more). You'd probably hear the same hissy sound. That has nothing to do with grounding.

But if you're still not sure then you can record it and post it here.

[chromesphere]

When i built my dr boogey (highly recommend if your into high gain), and the board was loose / hadnt been boxed up yet, i was getting noise at the same volume as guitar signal going through the effect!  i.e. a ridiculous amount of noise...

Someone posted some tips on how to reduce the noise in high-gain pedals, which I followed.  Things like, keep the input and output away, treble wiring away from...volume...something like that...oscillation i think they call it...Anyway, after boxing it up, i ended up with pretty well zero noise from the circuit.   

Just had a search for it, cant seem to find the thread.  Have a look around for tips on reducing noise in high gain circuits or, i think, its called oscillation (sorry it was last year...cant remember).  You may find the tips help reduce it.
CS

[Uriziel]

I managed to reduce the noise a bit.

Also got rid of the chirpy sound. I used a 3 color blinking led thad produced that sound. I started to notice that the sound was produced at the same intervals as the led blinked. I changed it and also got rid of some of the noise. Progress.

Haven't boxed it up yet though. Probably get rid of some more when I do.

When i ran my Boss BR-20 recorder throught the circuit with some pre-recorded stuff to help tweak the trims a bit... I got zero noise, but as soon i hooked my guitar after the circuit, i got a fair amount of it. It's hard to find single core insulated wire here... maybe that would help a bit too...

Other than that it sounds great... but palm mute'ing is a total disaster... and the bypassed signal is too weak (what may well be a problem of my guitar)...

[jasperoosthoek]

Keep up the good work and thanks for posting your progress! That will help future builders and maybe me

[Uriziel]

I was wondering, if I change the wiring of the pots and use shielded wire instead, then where do I connect the shield... right to the ground on the pcb or do i just leave the shield unconnected and only use the wire inside the shield?

sry if it's a noob question...

[Hides-His-Eyes]

one typically connects the shield only to one end, and carefully heatshrinks the other end to prevent shorts.

[Uriziel]

I built it all over again using metal film resistors and caps. Now it doesn't work although i have everything else the same.

I get a faint bypass signal together with loads of ground noise. When i touch the strings on the guitar the ground noise gets a bit louder.
Strumming has a kind of attack feel. Switched on i get sometimes a very faint distorted signal.

During the initial test it worked for a while and the bypassed signal was also significantly louder.
Now i don't know what is going on.

I have the whole thing inside an aluminum casing. DC in and output jacks have been isolated from the case so they wouldn't touch, otherwise - no signal.

Sometimes it helped if i touched the gain's B wire with my fingers when i disconnected the pot.
Sometimes when i moved the first trannie a bit, i got a bigger noise. I used a socket. Now i just soldered them both right on the PCB.

I've gone over and over. Soldered and resoldered the wires. I didn't use shielded wire, but then again, I can't hear any oscillation, only ground noise.

I have several opamps I have tried, and nothing.

The ground wires are all together. Connected to the case. I even isolated the bodies of the pots from the case so they wouldn't touch

It's only when i touch the output plugs metal casing i get the full effect - I think.

Do you guys have any tips or hints what i should try to do now to get it working properly...

Thanks in advance
Juho

[aron]

Test it in segments. First check your voltages again, then using an audio probe, listen after the op amp, then before each inverter stage, then before the FET booster.

Aron

[jasperoosthoek]

I get a faint bypass signal

Forget the rest and solve this first . As Aron says, test it in segments. This is segment one.

[Uriziel]

I measured all the voltages:

Q1 J201
D = 5.07v
G = 0v
S = 0.79v

Q2 J201
D= 9.05v
G= 4.27v
S= 5.07v

TL071
P1 0.14v
P2 4.52v
P3 4.27v
P4 0v
p5 0.14v
P6 4.52v
P7 9.05v
P8 0v


CD4049Ube
P1 6.99v
P2 2.72v
P3 2.72v
P4 0.01v
P5 6.99v
P6 0v
P7 6.99v
P8 0v
P9 6.99v
P10 0v
P11 6.99v
P12 0.01v
P13 0v
P14 2.72v
P15 2.72v
P16 0v

D1
A (anode, the non-band end) = -170 mV
K (cathode, the banded end) = +0.1 mv

D2
A = 0.1 mV
K = 0.5 mV

D3
A = 0.7 mV
K = 0V


The bypassed signal was fine...

I made a little changes to the layout, but nothing replacing any of the components.
I only changed the transistor slots to match D-S-G like trannies are so i wouldn't have to twist the legs.
I'm 100% sure i got right. And also i added some extra tracks to the layout for the bias trimpot so i wouldn't have to have too long wires.
So nothing major...

So I made myself an audio probe and got a fairly good signal untill the transistors. Tried a lot of different ones but still no change.

Do I have to hear the amplified signal everywhere, or is there some parts where the signal is weaker or isn't present at all?
besides the obvious places where the tracks are leading towards the ground...

I also made a picture where it shows the places i got a signal..



The crosses are where i couldn't hear a good signal, wheter it was absent or it was very faint.
Nothing like the places i could hear it clearly.
The probe picks up the signal even if it's not touching the board, So a lot of the places where i put crosses, i could hear a signal of the same level almost.

Some points were a bit different from the rest, but i sholud hear the signal loudly right ?

I'll also post the adjusted layout here aswell... just in case there is something wrong with it...




So any input would be nice...


Thanks in advance