NEW PRODUCT: Taptation Tap Tempo controller

[The Tone God]

I was wondering if we could get this to work with a dual pt2399 delay setup? There's two applications I had in mind. Two pt2399's in series, to get double the delay time (more cleanly than doubling the delay time pot), or to have to entirely separate delay pedals to create a "multi-head" type setup.

I was thinking that the taptation's pins 8 9 and 10 could be buffered to feed two different digital pots. This way we're controlling two p2399's at the same time.

And if you wanted to stagger the delay times, i guess you could always add a pot in series with the digital pot for one of the pt2399's to add some delay time.

So do you think the taptation chip can feed multiple delay pots if buffered properly?

The TapTation can drive two digital pots directly at the same time. No buffering is required. Just wiring them in parallel with exception of the connection to pin 6 of the PT2399 obviously. I don't know if the time calibration will hold up but it should...I think...maybe.

The one reference that would be off is the scale tempo output. It would always be twice what the new delay time is. I suppose you can feed it into a flip flop like a 4013 to do a half division on the output.

It looks like my tempo scale and my double time part of the taptation is not working anymore. Led indication of both tempo clock and scale time is working.
The double tempo is stuck in double time and the time scale is stuck in its middle or fastest tempo (hard to tell from the blincking leds).

This would suggest a short form pin 11 to ground but when I remove the taptation there is no continuity from the pin 11 socket position to ground.
Is the taptation fried??

I'll take a look at your layout alittle later but something definetly sounds wrong when the regulator is heating up. The TapTation itself should not draw any serious amount of current. For now if you can throw the TapTation into a bread board and just wiring up the LEDs switches to see if the LEDs blink correctly. :::Fingers crossed:::

Andrew

[Marcvv]

It looks like my tempo scale and my double time part of the taptation is not working anymore. Led indication of both tempo clock and scale time is working.
The double tempo is stuck in double time and the time scale is stuck in its middle or fastest tempo (hard to tell from the blincking leds).

This would suggest a short form pin 11 to ground but when I remove the taptation there is no continuity from the pin 11 socket position to ground.
Is the taptation fried??

I'll take a look at your layout alittle later but something definetly sounds wrong when the regulator is heating up. The TapTation itself should not draw any serious amount of current. For now if you can throw the TapTation into a bread board and just wiring up the LEDs switches to see if the LEDs blink correctly. :::Fingers crossed:::

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

What a pity is it not. It was working really well


I have delaytime control (tap tempo and the delaytime pot on the taptation). Mod depth and PWM are working.

The leds blink even in the setup now.
Clock tempo led blinks. Scale division leds blinks.

There is no reaction to the double time switch (that is all the time as if it is connected to ground)
There is no reaction to the time scale switch.

This is with connection to the PT 80 and also separate from the PT 80.

I will try it in a breadboard tomorrow. You are suggesting to only wire the switches and the leds?? ( and power of course)

Your documentation says to connect pin5/6 to pin 6 of the PT 2399.

In the PT 80 the delay time  pot is connected to pin 6 through a 1k resistor. You leave that out? If you take out the delay pot out of the PT 80 the PT2399 side start drawing more current.
Could it be that the taptation was not supplying the resistance to ground that the deal time pot in the PT 80 normally is supplying and therefor creating a too big a current draw??

Thanks, Marc

[Marcvv]

I'll take a look at your layout alittle later but something definetly sounds wrong when the regulator is heating up. The TapTation itself should not draw any serious amount of current. For now if you can throw the TapTation into a bread board and just wiring up the LEDs switches to see if the LEDs blink correctly. :::Fingers crossed:::

Andrew

I Andrew,

I did put the taptation on a breadboard with a 78L05.
The 0.1 cap from pin 1 to pin 14. 
The leds on pin 3 and 5 with a 1k resistor.
On pin 12 the time scale switch (with 100k from pin 12 to ground) to centre lug and sides to ground and vcc.
On pin 11 the double time switch to ground.

Leds blink. Time scale blinks in 3 to 1 to the tempo clock. Switches have no effect.

I measure a current draw of 140 ma.

Seems like the taptation is working but the timescale and double tempo part is stuck.
What do you think? fried?



I have a consideration about what caused it?
At the same time that this happened I started having a problem with my PT80.
It started to draw too much current as well. I replaced caps in the PT80 and checked and exchanged the parts (other PT 2399, other Ne 570 etc.). No difference. Then I realised that the delaypot was not connected as it had been replaced by the taptation. I reconnected the delay time pot and voila... everything was working again as normal. This makes me think that the PT2399 does not like that the resistance is removed created by the delaytime pot (and the 1k in series with it) I know that the digital pot should take over that reisistance but there is no 1k in series with it if it goed directly to pin 6. Could that have caused the problem with the taptation??

The taptation documentation says that the taptation goes directly to pin 6 of the PT2399 and replaces the existing delay pot.

Any suggestions what I can do??

Thanks, Marc

[YouAre]

The TapTation can drive two digital pots directly at the same time. No buffering is required. Just wiring them in parallel with exception of the connection to pin 6 of the PT2399 obviously. I don't know if the time calibration will hold up but it should...I think...maybe.

The one reference that would be off is the scale tempo output. It would always be twice what the new delay time is. I suppose you can feed it into a flip flop like a 4013 to do a half division on the output.

That was why i suggested the buffers, with high enough input impedances so as to not draw current from the taptation. I guess I can sacrifice the tempo scale...

But my main concern is if I cascade two pt2399's...that would effectively double the delay time, correct? So we'd effectively want the tempo of the taptation to be doubled, right? So if the double time works, we'll be golden...maybe? Do I have it right, or do we actually want to halve the tempo. (Sorry, brainfarting).

[slacker]

The delay will be twice as long as whatever division you have the taptation set to, so sixteenths will be eighths, eighths will be quarters etc. So if you use the double time settings the eighth setting will give a delay the same length as what you tap, this will make the maximum delay time from both chips the same as using one chip, but possibly with better sound quality.

[YouAre]

The delay will be twice as long as whatever division you have the taptation set to, so sixteenths will be eighths, eighths will be quarters etc. So if you use the double time settings the eighth setting will give a delay the same length as what you tap, this will make the maximum delay time from both chips the same as using one chip, but possibly with better sound quality.

Yep! That's the idea!

I mean, i COULD be crazy, get two taptations and control them with a non-latched dpst, and use FOUR pt2399's....but I haven't got the money for that....

I think i'll just test 1 chip, then 2.

But Andrew, since the tempo scale setting MIGHT be compromised by driving two pots, is the doubletime going to be compromised as well?

[Beo]

Hey folks.

Sorry I've been chained to the soldering iron lately.

I sent out a shipment of TapTation controllers earlier this week. They should be in Aron's hands any day now.

Andrew

I've been watching for store updates but nada so far. Any idea when these will be available for order? Also, have you packaged the digital pot or will that a separate purchase?

[The Tone God]

Leds blink. Time scale blinks in 3 to 1 to the tempo clock. Switches have no effect.

I measure a current draw of 140 ma.

Seems like the taptation is working but the timescale and double tempo part is stuck.
What do you think? fried?

I'm beginning to think so. The pins of the controller have internal diode protection but its only good to a certain point above the power pins. If you put too much voltage or current the diode(s) might blow. Disconnect all the inputs and outputs with exception to the power supply and measure the current. If its still high then I would say something internal has gone. If not then connect one part at a time till you find a current jump. That should tell you what pin is gone.

I have a consideration about what caused it?
At the same time that this happened I started having a problem with my PT80.
It started to draw too much current as well. I replaced caps in the PT80 and checked and exchanged the parts (other PT 2399, other Ne 570 etc.). No difference. Then I realised that the delaypot was not connected as it had been replaced by the taptation. I reconnected the delay time pot and voila... everything was working again as normal. This makes me think that the PT2399 does not like that the resistance is removed created by the delaytime pot (and the 1k in series with it) I know that the digital pot should take over that reisistance but there is no 1k in series with it if it goed directly to pin 6. Could that have caused the problem with the taptation??

Interesting theory but there should be little reason how a surge would have trickled back to the controller with the digital pot in between. From my testing I didn't see much current draw from the PT2399 pin 6 so it shouldn't be an issue. The digital pot actually has some internal resistance (about 100ohms) even when maxed out which replaces the need for a resistor. I don't believe this caused the problem. Try testing out what I suggested above so we can get a better picture of what maybe happening.

But Andrew, since the tempo scale setting MIGHT be compromised by driving two pots, is the doubletime going to be compromised as well?

Slacker is right. The double time control sets both the scale time output and the digital pot so you can't compensate the double PT2399 delay time with that function. It was originally intended to allow people to use the delay in its normal 50K range without having to buy a new digital pot. It also becomes handy for those who may want to double the delays under certain performance situations. I couldn't guarantee accuracy when doubling the PT2399s with this setup. Sorry.

I didn't want to step in as it was another product but now I noticed in the other thread the PTAP is no longer being offered. If the demand is great enough I can create a similar dual PT2399 version fairly easily. Right now we are still testing out the demand for the single version.

I've been watching for store updates but nada so far. Any idea when these will be available for order? Also, have you packaged the digital pot or will that a separate purchase?

Aron has them now. I think hes just waiting for the digital pots to make the kits. The digital pots are included with the TapTation so you just order the kit and are ready to go.

Andrew

[YouAre]

Slacker is right. The double time control sets both the scale time output and the digital pot so you can't compensate the double PT2399 delay time with that function. It was originally intended to allow people to use the delay in its normal 50K range without having to buy a new digital pot. It also becomes handy for those who may want to double the delays under certain performance situations. I couldn't guarantee accuracy when doubling the PT2399s with this setup. Sorry.

I didn't want to step in as it was another product but now I noticed in the other thread the PTAP is no longer being offered. If the demand is great enough I can create a similar dual PT2399 version fairly easily. Right now we are still testing out the demand for the single version.

I would definitely like to try building a dual pt2399 delay, so I guess I should help in developing that project. Step one...buy a bunch of pt2399's and get to work! Haha. I'll definitely get started soon and see how the echobase handles 2 pt2399's. If it sounds decent, I'll see if the taptation will be able to drive two digital pots nicely.

But if people are going to chip in votes for a dual taptation...count me in!

[Marcvv]

Hi Andrew,

I did what you suggested.

Taptation with only the 5 volt powersupply draws 129 ma. Adding a part (switching the powersupply in and out every time) changed nothing  

Could you please look over my layout ( the one I posted a few posts back), it would be nice to know what went wrong before I try a new one. I will order a new set today.

As I said before the taptation still works in sending delay time. Can I assume from this that the digital pot is still ok?

I understand what you are saying about my suggestion abou what might have happened. It still leaves me with no idea why I had both the PT80 and the Taptation work really well together and then stop working.
It would be nice to be able to sort that out before I try a new chipset.

Thanks for reacting so fast.

regards, Marc

[Beo]

I didn't want to step in as it was another product but now I noticed in the other thread the PTAP is no longer being offered. If the demand is great enough I can create a similar dual PT2399 version fairly easily. Right now we are still testing out the demand for the single version.

I've been watching for store updates but nada so far. Any idea when these will be available for order? Also, have you packaged the digital pot or will that a separate purchase?

Aron has them now. I think hes just waiting for the digital pots to make the kits. The digital pots are included with the TapTation so you just order the kit and are ready to go.

Andrew

My application is a stereo dual delay (series/parallel/ping pong), so I would also want a fully dual compatible version of the taptation. In the meantime, I will purchase the current version for testing. Thanks for the update on store availability.

[Marcvv]

Hi Andrew,

I did what you suggested.

Taptation with only the 5 volt powersupply draws 129 ma. Adding a part (switching the powersupply in and out every time) changed nothing  

Could you please look over my layout ( the one I posted a few posts back), it would be nice to know what went wrong before I try a new one. I will order a new set today.

As I said before the taptation still works in sending delay time. Can I assume from this that the digital pot is still ok?

I understand what you are saying about my suggestion abou what might have happened. It still leaves me with no idea why I had both the PT80 and the Taptation work really well together and then stop working.
It would be nice to be able to sort that out before I try a new chipset.

Thanks for reacting so fast.

regards, Marc

Bump

[au_loki]

Hidee ho there - just an update that my vero layout works ok with a stock standard Rebote.
Later au_loki

[aron]

Back in store.

[Marcvv]

Would it be possible to drive a second PT2399 that will only take the time from the tempo clock while the other PT2399 will change according to the double tempo and tempo scale?
Could I use the tempo clock out to drive a digital pot to that second PT2399.

In that way I would have a delay on the tempo and a second on whatever scale division I choose.

Marc

[Marcvv]

Would it be possible to drive a second PT2399 that will only take the time from the tempo clock while the other PT2399 (hooked up to the digital pot at pins 8/9/10) will change according to the double tempo and tempo scale?
Could I use the tempo clock out to drive a second digital pot to that second PT2399.

In that way I would have a delay on the tempo and a second on whatever scale division I choose.

Marc

[Beo]

Would it be possible to drive a second PT2399 that will only take the time from the tempo clock while the other PT2399 will change according to the double tempo and tempo scale?
Could I use the tempo clock out to drive a digital pot to that second PT2399.

In that way I would have a delay on the tempo and a second on whatever scale division I choose.

Marc

The interface between the controller and the digipot is a digital data communication protocol and not simply an analog pulse signal. One controller could connect to two digipots wired in parallel, and both digipots would receive the same interface command correctly and set to the same resistance value. To have different resistance values (e.g. different subdivisions), you'd need a separate taptation controller for each digipot. I guess you could add a time pot in series with one of the digipots and dial in the second tempo by hand/ear.

One controller can connect to two digipots and command different resistance values, using the communication protocol (different command words for each pot). This might allow for a single controller to run a dual delay setup with different tempos/subdivisions for each delay. However this would require a code change. Also, I'm not sure if there is enough input capability to select different tempo subdivisions for two delays.

If this was possible, I'd want to ship my chip back to TTG and have him reprogram it for dual. Unless a controller with more I/O options is required for dual. Otherwise, we're back to the two controllers, two digipots.

[Marcvv]

The interface between the controller and the digipot is a digital data communication protocol and not simply an analog pulse signal. One controller could connect to two digipots wired in parallel, and both digipots would receive the same interface command correctly and set to the same resistance value. To have different resistance values (e.g. different subdivisions), you'd need a separate taptation controller for each digipot. I guess you could add a time pot in series with one of the digipots and dial in the second tempo by hand/ear.

One controller can connect to two digipots and command different resistance values, using the communication protocol (different command words for each pot). This might allow for a single controller to run a dual delay setup with different tempos/subdivisions for each delay. However this would require a code change. Also, I'm not sure if there is enough input capability to select different tempo subdivisions for two delays.

If this was possible, I'd want to ship my chip back to TTG and have him reprogram it for dual. Unless a controller with more I/O options is required for dual. Otherwise, we're back to the two controllers, two digipots.

Hi Beo,

Thanks for clarifying this. I suspected something like this but was not sure.

Let's see what come up when this evolves.

Thanks, Marc

[au_loki]

Hey one funky thing would be to get one 100K digital pot (mcp41100) and one 50K digital pot (mcp41050) and run the signal to both. I would be interested in hearing how it goes. Later, au_loki

[Marcvv]

Hi Andrew,

I did what you suggested.

Taptation with only the 5 volt powersupply draws 129 ma. Adding a part (switching the powersupply in and out every time) changed nothing  

Could you please look over my layout ( the one I posted a few posts back), it would be nice to know what went wrong before I try a new one. I will order a new set today.

As I said before the taptation still works in sending delay time. Can I assume from this that the digital pot is still ok?

I understand what you are saying about my suggestion abou what might have happened. It still leaves me with no idea why I had both the PT80 and the Taptation work really well together and then stop working.
It would be nice to be able to sort that out before I try a new chipset.

Thanks for reacting so fast.

regards, Marc

I received a new chipset this week from Aron. (his packages always arrive within just two days!! This is across two oceans!) I installed it in my layout after triple checking it again. The taptation works fine now on itself. Now I have to see if the combination with my PT80 will hold up this time.
I still wonder what went wrong with my first set.

Marc