ideas for and old school punk sounding circuit

[Derringer]

think "Stooges"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irskrVvKR1E

this tone sounds to me like a small class A amp cranked way the hell up and fed really hot into the mix

also .. think Misfits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSgaqreXrKE


I tried just messing around with a rangemaster-type circuit using silicon trannies. It's close but it's a bit too splatty.

I'm thinking two transistor stages. The first stage hot to overdrive the next stage (perhaps a buffer?)and to get that overdriven sound without all the extra volume. I don't want to drive my amp's input, I just want to have "Stooge in a Box" or something like that.

and it's punk, so it need to be simple

Ideas?

Thanks

[John Lyons]

Ron Ashton used a Mosrite Fuzzrite for that track I believe and also a Vox tonebender for others.
You can hear the octavish gurgle happening that the fuzz rite is known for.

The misfits track you could probably cop with the fuzzrite as well. Make the output cap a little
larger maybe for more low end. But those tracks are pretty bass shy so...

[Earthscum]

First distortion stage of the Big Muff using MPSA13. 0.1uF input cap, 470k base to collector, 100k base to ground, 10k-22k from collector and tie the emitter straight to ground. .1uF to a 100k volume. Now ya gots a good gritty boost, and just drop a couple back to back Si diodes in parallel with the 470k. If ya want some kind of gain control, you can do a 1k pot between emitter and ground with a 10uF cap from the wiper to ground in typical fashion.

Honestly, as a punk myself, I don't know how much more punk you can get. It ain't pretty, and you may need a cap across the diodes/feedback resistor. Also, try the Muff trick of decoupling the diodes with a cap to shape the clipped tones.

There are some simpler circuits you should try, though... Tim Escebedo has a nice collection of ultra simple grit circuits: http://www.jiggawoo.eclipse.co.uk/guitarhq/Circuitsnippets/snippets.html

[anchovie]

Ron Ashton used a Mosrite Fuzzrite for that track I believe and also a Vox tonebender for others.
You can hear the octavish gurgle happening that the fuzz rite is known for.

The misfits track you could probably cop with the fuzzrite as well. Make the output cap a little
larger maybe for more low end. But those tracks are pretty bass shy so...

+1

I've built two Fuzzrite clones for local punk/no wave guitarists and they're both thrilled with them. They put LPBs in front when they really want to go nuts.

[Processaurus]

An important part of the punk guitar sound is that it can't be too "good", some trebly element of transistoriness or raspy thrashed speakers can help to make it sound noisy and cheap.

[Earthscum]

hehe... that's what I like about the muff stage. I like the MPSA13, but if ya want some degradation, use a pair of 2n3904's in darlington, or if ya want nasty hissing lo-fi-sound, do the same with a pair of 2n2222's.

I like the emitter to ground with no resistor. Makes it react somewhat like a Bazz Fuss (now THERE is a truely PUNK circuit... you can build that with parts scavenged from just about anywhere!)

Yeah, give the Bazz Fuss a try, too. I have quite a few friends that I've had to build them for.

[doug deeper]

in actuality, most of these early punk bands used gear we would consider to be really nice these days.
all the 77' punk bands used marshall and fender stuff, tons of les pauls and rick basses, and they still sounded raw.
i think it has a lot more to do with playing style and really straight up recordings.
id say a rog eighteen would be good for the search and destroy type sound.
and a fuzzrite for the leads is right on track too in my opinion.

[MikeH]

think "Stooges"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irskrVvKR1E

this tone sounds to me like a small class A amp cranked way the hell up and fed really hot into the mix

Actually I believe they were 100W Marshall stacks... cranked way the hell up and fed really hot into the mix. 

There's a quote about it somewhere in "Please Kill Me", and he says something like:  "We didn't really know what we were doing, we'd just take our Marshall stacks and turn everything all the way up".  Or something like that

[Earthscum]

Alright... props to the FuzzRite.

I don't know what possessed me this morning, but I decided "70's fuzz, I'll use some scavenged 70's trannies".. close enough, a pair of 2SC1815Y's, gains of 205 (Q1) and 195 (Q2), 500k pot, and just used a 100k to ground for volume. I'm hooked on this circuit now. I've never really liked the sound of most differential fuzz's, but I like how this one works with a buttload of gain on one side instead of equal gain on both sides.

I think those scavenged trannies are getting a new permanent home. This thing sounds awesome with my DeanZ (EMG Select bridge, and detuned to Dflat). Yeah, I play guitar, too. 

[edvard]

From a Google search, it looks like Franche Coma (Misfits) used a Big Muff of some sort (I can almost nail the "Legacy of Brutality" sound with my op-amp BMP), Bobby Steele and Doyle both used the MXR Dist+.
All the Misfits guitarists used Ampeg amplifiers from what I could find.

I would agree that any raw-sounding distortion ought to work well.

[Derringer]

cool guys, thanks for the fodder

i did a little research and it turns out that Asheton was playing bass on the "Raw Power" recordings while James Williamson took over on guitars.

from wikipedia:
Williamson is known primarily for his use of Gibson Les Paul Custom guitars, but he also plays other guitars live. Williamson says that all the songs on Raw Power  were written in his London bedroom on a Gibson B-25 acoustic and the acoustic guitar used in the studio was a Martin D-28. A Vox AC30 amplifier was used for recording Raw Power and no effects pedals were used[12]. Williamson had always used Marshall amplifiers when playing live until recently when he switched to Blackstar Amplification's Artisan 30.[13]

And that kind of jives with what my ears are telling me. There's a string articulation there in the recording that I can't see a fuzzrite producing ... at least from the fuzzrite clips that I listened too.

I think that the next time I sit down with my breadboard I'll try that BMP stage idea first. And I'll report back.

But I do see a fuzzrite in my future too though, because it does sound awfully good and FuzzCentral has a nice looking PCB transfer ready to go!

[Earthscum]

I was thinking today, in the early 90's what we used to consider a "punk" sound was a Rat, DS-1 (MIT), or about any nasty distortion played through a mic'd Peavey Rage runnin to the PA. Also, the "Goomba Mic" was pretty punk. It was a public service mic that I ripped the element out of and replaced with the mic element from an old 70's telephone set. Of course, it was gracefully assembled with "classic Silver" colored ductape. When I can find another handset from 70's/80's lying around, I'ma gonna make another one. Basically, it sounds like a bullhorn.  like crap.

[Derringer]

First distortion stage of the Big Muff using MPSA13. 0.1uF input cap, 470k base to collector, 100k base to ground, 10k-22k from collector and tie the emitter straight to ground. .1uF to a 100k volume. Now ya gots a good gritty boost, and just drop a couple back to back Si diodes in parallel with the 470k.

Here's exactly as you said ... no diodes, a 22K collector resistor, and a 2N5306

http://www.zshare.net/audio/79935246837c10ae/

heh ... try to ignore the acoustic sound of the pick hitting the strings ... I stand close to the condensors

Iommi neck p'up of SG into a buffered pedal into this circuit, through everything else (buffers in there), into the clean channel of my X100B, 4X12 cab, MXL condensor mics 25 feet away, into m-audio box /computer/audacity

I think this is going to be the core of the circuit. I'm going to tweak a little from here for frequency response  ... but I think this is pretty much what I had in mind.

Thanks again everyone

[davidallancole]

I didn't know the old punkers could afford Les Pauls and Marshall Half Stacks.

[rnfr]

if you want an updated version of the Fuzzrite, try the Green Bomb that i based off of Gus' version.  it's got more gain, and an NFB tone control that goes from zippy psych to stoner metal!  all the info is on my blog.

http://apocalypseaudio.blogspot.com/2010/02/green-bomb-fuzz.html

also for the Stooges thing, check out the Dirty Boots that i have on the blog as well.  you can nail TV Eye!  it takes some funky Russian trannies, but it can work with regular Ge's as well.  low gainers work great.  oh yeah, try a voltage starve bias pot on Q2- gives lots of tones!

http://apocalypseaudio.blogspot.com/2009/03/dirty-boots-germanium-overdrive.html
.

[wavley]

Old punk is the sound of whatever you could find in a pawn shop for cheap.

I've bought two Fender Mustangs for $75, a Fender Lead II for $100, a Space Echo for $50, I've seen Marshalls for less than $200 in my day, so yeah, sometimes punks had nice gear.  In the late 80's early 90's when I played hardcore (like Husker Du and Black Flag) I used a 78 Lead II and 69 Traynor Custom Reverb on a Showman 2x12 with a block logo Distortion + and the whole rig cost less than $250.

[Derringer]

also for the Stooges thing, check out the Dirty Boots that i have on the blog as well.  you can nail TV Eye!  it takes some funky Russian trannies, but it can work with regular Ge's as well.  low gainers work great.  oh yeah, try a voltage starve bias pot on Q2- gives lots of tones!

http://apocalypseaudio.blogspot.com/2009/03/dirty-boots-germanium-overdrive.html
.

any chance the name "Dirty Boots" is a nod to the Sonic Youth song ? .... possibly my favorite SY song.

[Caferacernoc]

I love the Raw Power album. And I've read the below quote:

from wikipedia:
Williamson is known primarily for his use of Gibson Les Paul Custom guitars, but he also plays other guitars live. Williamson says that all the songs on Raw Power  were written in his London bedroom on a Gibson B-25 acoustic and the acoustic guitar used in the studio was a Martin D-28. A Vox AC30 amplifier was used for recording Raw Power and no effects pedals were used[12]. Williamson had always used Marshall amplifiers when playing live until recently when he switched to Blackstar Amplification's Artisan 30.[13]


I think all, or almost all the rythm guitar is AC30. But some of the leads....... If that's all tube amp they must have hit the tape SO HARD. It's brutal and I love it. I'd think a rangemaster into the Vox would be spot on for some of the "fuzzier" bits.

Earlier Stooges with Ashton on guitar. Fuzz pedal for sure.

[rnfr]

also for the Stooges thing, check out the Dirty Boots that i have on the blog as well.  you can nail TV Eye!  it takes some funky Russian trannies, but it can work with regular Ge's as well.  low gainers work great.  oh yeah, try a voltage starve bias pot on Q2- gives lots of tones!

http://apocalypseaudio.blogspot.com/2009/03/dirty-boots-germanium-overdrive.html
.

any chance the name "Dirty Boots" is a nod to the Sonic Youth song ? .... possibly my favorite SY song.

it's a play on "dirty boost", but that was always one of my faves by them, too.  i'm sure it passed through my brain at one point or another.

[glops]

That's a GREAT song....