Big Muff/DS-1 silicon vs. germanium diodes

[Guitarfreak]

I ordered a slew of germanium diodes the other day and within a few weeks I want to begin experimenting with them.  I am debating about whether or not to try them out in my pedals, namely the Big Muff pi and BOSS DS-1.  What should I expect to hear in the tone of these pedals if I choose to swap the original silicon diodes?  I know there will be more compression and gain, but how about the actual tone itself?  The tone of both pedals seems to be very high mid focused and can be brittle, so will the germaniums 'smooth' out the high mids at all?  More bass?  More usable in the lower gain levels or less usable?

[Derringer]

honestly ... and I know this isn't the answer you want to hear ... but only your ears can tell you the qualitative difference
if you can mod the pedal to have a switch that flips between the options, then that's the best way to decide

i did try germanium diodes in a breadboarded BM once and it gave a very strong 2nd harmonic. It sounded cool .. but not what I wanted from m BM. I tried combo's of ge and si diodes in it and decided that I prefered the all si approach.

[Guitarfreak]

honestly ... and I know this isn't the answer you want to hear ... but only your ears can tell you the qualitative difference
if you can mod the pedal to have a switch that flips between the options, then that's the best way to decide

i did try germanium diodes in a breadboarded BM once and it gave a very strong 2nd harmonic. It sounded cool .. but not what I wanted from m BM. I tried combo's of ge and si diodes in it and decided that I prefered the all si approach.

Why wouldn't I want to hear that?  That's good advice bro, thanks.  I was planning on making the mod switchable anyhow, I am searching for doom tone a-la Electric Wizard or something.  Do you think that it would be a cool addition to my already switch-modded pedal?  I was also thinking that switch bypassing the emitter resistors would be a cool mod.  Oh, you know what may be relative to topic that I should have mentioned earlier.  The way I have been using my Muff is with the Tone Bypass and Tone Wicker mods engaged to give it more of an open sound and I was wondering if the germaniums would sound cool with that.  Honestly like you said I wouldn't think of using them with the stock circuit.  I may still go ahead and give it a try.  Thanks!

[Derringer]

Why wouldn't I want to hear that?  That's good advice bro, thanks.  

haha ... cool man, no problem

I was planning on making the mod switchable anyhow, I am searching for doom tone a-la Electric Wizard or something.  Do you think that it would be a cool addition to my already switch-modded pedal?  

I think EW's guitarist used one of those Boss fuzz pedals that had more than a passing resemblance to the Superfuzz circuit .... i.e. it had some scooped mids and lots of octave.
If you have room in/on your pedal for the extra diodes and a switch then go for it. You have nothing to lose.

I was also thinking that switch bypassing the emitter resistors would be a cool mod.  Oh, you know what may be relative to topic that I should have mentioned earlier.  The way I have been using my Muff is with the Tone Bypass and Tone Wicker mods engaged to give it more of an open sound and I was wondering if the germaniums would sound cool with that.  Honestly like you said I wouldn't think of using them with the stock circuit.  I may still go ahead and give it a try.  Thanks!

Bypassing the emitters might give you a bit more volume but I don't think it would alter the tone all that much because of all the heavy clipping that's designed into the circuit. Easy enough to try and find out for sure though. And, if the circuit is already more open sounding then I'd imagine that the octave-y stuff from the germanium diodes would come out a little more prominently.


I'll tell you what though, I have a muff that I built that has a clean blend. If I set the blend to 50% and then run an octave up pedal like a superfuzz, scrambler, or even escobedo's Rambler in front of the blended-muff, it sounds really big and grindy ... very similar but still unique in comparison to EW's tone

[Guitarfreak]

Yeah, the mods really open up the pedal, no more fuzzy blanket and lost pick attack.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9522193
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9522194

For the diode selection switch I need a 4PDT switch right?  One pole for each diode correct?

[petemoore]

Ge's can jumper right over the Si's, the diode with lowest threshold for that side of the wave does the clipping while the higher threshold one sleeps, that and a switch gives you two thresholds and when the switch breaks theres at least the stock diodes still.
 Ge though tends to be pretty 'clampy' [low threshold compared to Si], and boosting the ''signal up'' is similar [as far as where in the wave-curve the clipping starts] to bringing the diode 'threshold down''.

[dune2k]

I think EW's guitarist used one of those Boss fuzz pedals that had more than a passing resemblance to the Superfuzz circuit .... i.e. it had some scooped mids and lots of octave.

You mean the FZ-2. Behringer just released a clone of it...though I'd prefer the FZ-2 for 20€ more.

[Guitarfreak]

Ge's can jumper right over the Si's, the diode with lowest threshold for that side of the wave does the clipping while the higher threshold one sleeps, that and a switch gives you two thresholds and when the switch breaks theres at least the stock diodes still.
 Ge though tends to be pretty 'clampy' [low threshold compared to Si], and boosting the ''signal up'' is similar [as far as where in the wave-curve the clipping starts] to bringing the diode 'threshold down''.

That makes sense that only the lowest threshold would affect the clipping of the signal, but wouldn't the PIV be affected?

[Derringer]

Yeah, the mods really open up the pedal, no more fuzzy blanket and lost pick attack.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9522193
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9522194

For the diode selection switch I need a 4PDT switch right?  One pole for each diode correct?

which mods did you go with there?

the modded mp3 sounds much more articulate and in your face ... love the mastodong  
tell me you went and got a beer while the guitar was sustaining


here's a quick recording I just did with my blended muff and a superfuzz , then a scrambler in front .. then I just got silly and put some octave down before the SF before the BM
big muff and other.mp3 - 1.33MB

[Derringer]

I think EW's guitarist used one of those Boss fuzz pedals that had more than a passing resemblance to the Superfuzz circuit .... i.e. it had some scooped mids and lots of octave.

You mean the FZ-2. Behringer just released a clone of it...though I'd prefer the FZ-2 for 20€ more.

Yup

that's the one

[Guitarfreak]

Yeah, the mods really open up the pedal, no more fuzzy blanket and lost pick attack.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9522193
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9522194

For the diode selection switch I need a 4PDT switch right?  One pole for each diode correct?

which mods did you go with there?

the modded mp3 sounds much more articulate and in your face ... love the mastodong  
tell me you went and got a beer while the guitar was sustaining


here's a quick recording I just did with my blended muff and a superfuzz , then a scrambler in front .. then I just got silly and put some octave down before the SF before the BM
big muff and other.mp3 - 1.33MB

That was the Tone Bypass mod (undoes the mid scoop and widens the low end) and Tone Wicker (removes blanket, allows pick attack to come through).

I really like your clip!  Thanks!  The Muff into Superfuzz made my jaw drop, no kidding dude.  When you say Superfuzz, do you mean the VoodooLabs Superfuzz?

[Derringer]

Thanks man
Univox Superfuzz
the muff comes after the superfuzz in the chain

heheheh
yeah dude ...I was like @#!%&* the first time I ran the two simultaneously like that.

[Guitarfreak]

Thanks man
Univox Superfuzz
the muff comes after the superfuzz in the chain

heheheh
yeah dude ...I was like @#!%&* the first time I ran the two simultaneously like that.

That's awesome dude, I want one now.  I guess they don't make them anymore?  Any clones worth looking into?

This isn't one right?  http://proguitarshop.com/store/effects-fuzz-pedals-c-602_7/dunlop-jh-oc1-jimi-hendrix-octavio-pedal-p-748

I actually tested a similar setup not too long ago, except I had my DS-1 going into modded Muff.  This clip shows the tones.  First is DS-1, second is Muff, then when I slide it is both pedals from there on out.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9620132

[Derringer]

I think the muff alone sounds best in that clip. I'm just not a fan of the DS-1's sound though in general.

Remember though, my muff has a clean blend on it, the buff'n'blend to be exact and that helps the incoming distortion retain some of it's natural character.

That Octavio sounds pretty kickass but it's a different beast from the superfuzz. The superfuzz is more aggressive and scooped sounding.

hell, if you can work with vero-board you can build my exact superfuzz
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=77512.0

[Guitarfreak]

I think the muff alone sounds best in that clip. I'm just not a fan of the DS-1's sound though in general.

Remember though, my muff has a clean blend on it, the buff'n'blend to be exact and that helps the incoming distortion retain some of it's natural character.

That Octavio sounds pretty kickass but it's a different beast from the superfuzz. The superfuzz is more aggressive and scooped sounding.

hell, if you can work with vero-board you can build my exact superfuzz
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=77512.0

I agree that the mod Muff sounds beast through the Marshall clean channel.

I happened to come across this, you think it's worth it?  What exactly did your mods do for the pedal?  Were you running it in flat mode or scooped mode?  I think you said scooped.
http://www.buildyourownclone.com/leeds.html

[served]

I would like to comment something about diodes LEDs and diodes.

I have made some tests with them in various circuits. What I found was that the wave form doesnot change. Si and LED-s waveforms are the same. Only thing is amplitude that is different. I built some circuits and watched my Oscope for waveform. LEDs are much more louder, so they tend to sound different, but if I calculated the right resistor after clipping stage, LEDs sounded exactly the same as Si-s. So this Mod is not very useful, because you could get the same result by just turning up the Volume knob.

Next I worked a bit with Sis and Ges. Well, I couldnot say for sure, it was different, but in different circuits the change sounded different.

1 thing that I could suggest is asym clipping. So it means that one side of the waveform is different from the other. And by this, you could some to something useful.

Its just info and a bit offtopic, but I thought I should say what I said.

Good luck!

[Fender3D]

mictester on the other forum plenty investigated diode clipping.
It's worth a read...

[Guitarfreak]

I would like to comment something about diodes LEDs and diodes.

I have made some tests with them in various circuits. What I found was that the wave form doesnot change. Si and LED-s waveforms are the same. Only thing is amplitude that is different. I built some circuits and watched my Oscope for waveform. LEDs are much more louder, so they tend to sound different, but if I calculated the right resistor after clipping stage, LEDs sounded exactly the same as Si-s. So this Mod is not very useful, because you could get the same result by just turning up the Volume knob.

Next I worked a bit with Sis and Ges. Well, I couldnot say for sure, it was different, but in different circuits the change sounded different.

1 thing that I could suggest is asym clipping. So it means that one side of the waveform is different from the other. And by this, you could some to something useful.

Its just info and a bit offtopic, but I thought I should say what I said.

Good luck!

So you didn't see any difference in the dynamic range or tone at all?  Did you experience any of the 'octave up' effects from the Ge diodes?

[Derringer]

I agree that the mod Muff sounds beast through the Marshall clean channel.

I happened to come across this, you think it's worth it?  What exactly did your mods do for the pedal?  Were you running it in flat mode or scooped mode?  I think you said scooped.
http://www.buildyourownclone.com/leeds.html

I think that you'd be very happy with that BYOC pedal.

my mods:
the saturation control is a variable 10K resistor between the Ge diodes and ground. What it does is allow me to adjust how hard the diodes "clamp" down on the sound. I have it set at a midway point. It makes the pedal sound a little more open and less compressed. The Superfuzz build I had prior to this had no diodes. I didn't like the way the Si diodes that I had at the time clipped the signal, so I removed them entirely. But on this build, i got a hold of some Ge diodes, experimented on the breadboard, and found that I liked the way some resistance sounded between those diodes and ground. Is it something you would absolutely need? No, probably not. But it wouldn't be difficult to mod that BYOC pedal to have that function either.

the c - b cap sockets were sockets thaat I built into the veroboard so that I could connect a capacitor between the collector and base of the first and last gain stages. This capacitor, people usually something between 50pf and 500pf, helps tame some of the high end harmonics. I never ended up putting a c-b cap in the first transistor stage, but I did put a 390pf c-b cap in the last gain recovery stage to rein in some of the treble. Is it something you'll need? Possibly. Possibly not. If you'll be running it into the big muff, just use the big muff's tone control to tailor your sound and you should be good to go. And again, it would probably be an easy enough mod to do to the BYOC pedal if you thought that you really needed it.

the tone control ... if you delve into the superfuzz design, you'll find that it has something called a Bridged T Notch filter in it
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=25788.0
Mark Hammer came up with a nice modification of placing a variable resistor between the bottom capacitor and ground. That serves as a mid-frequency scooped-to-flat control. That BYOC pedal has a switch that most likely bypasses the Bridged T Notch Filter if it's true to the original design, thus flattening the mids and scooping them when the switch is in the other position. In my pedal, the stock value of that cap in the filter is 0.1 uf I believe, I went with a 0.056uF cap because I didn't want it to scoop that severely. So my pedal isn't as scooped sounding as a stock Superfuzz.

But again, I think that you'd be very happy with the BYOC design.

[Derringer]

I would like to comment something about diodes LEDs and diodes.

I have made some tests with them in various circuits. What I found was that the wave form doesnot change. Si and LED-s waveforms are the same. Only thing is amplitude that is different. I built some circuits and watched my Oscope for waveform. LEDs are much more louder, so they tend to sound different, but if I calculated the right resistor after clipping stage, LEDs sounded exactly the same as Si-s. So this Mod is not very useful, because you could get the same result by just turning up the Volume knob.

Next I worked a bit with Sis and Ges. Well, I couldnot say for sure, it was different, but in different circuits the change sounded different.

1 thing that I could suggest is asym clipping. So it means that one side of the waveform is different from the other. And by this, you could some to something useful.

Its just info and a bit offtopic, but I thought I should say what I said.

Good luck!

So you didn't see any difference in the dynamic range or tone at all?  Did you experience any of the 'octave up' effects from the Ge diodes?

there's a nice page around here somewhere that has all of the different diode combinations of the big muff described ... I'll see if I can find it and post a link

also, with diodes, yes volume is affected, and although I have never experiemented with LED's as clippers, I can tell you certainly that Si diodes sound different to me than Ge diodes. And, one other important factor is the compression yielded by different diodes. Volume is related to compression, but the two concepts are not interchangeable.

and here is that page http://rkerkhof.ruhosting.nl/Taas/Mods/Big%20Muff.htm