Multi-band tone controls on pedals... why?

[Barcode80]

Seriously, help me understand. Maybe it's pretty anti-tweaker, but why do people always want to add knobs? All I've found with multiple band tone controls on pedals is:

1) they negatively interact with amp tone controls
2) the require more space in an otherwise small and efficient build/enclosure
3) the "flexibility" offered translates to "hard to dial in a good sound"
4) it seems I've never had problems hitting the tonal space I want with one knob.

Thoughts?

[Taylor]

There are specific answers, but I think the best answer is the old "different strokes for different folks" adage.

As far as interacting with amp controls, one way people might use pedals with multi-band EQ is to set their amp relatively flat, then tailor their rhythm sound with a single pedal that accomplishes both the distortion characteristics and EQ they're looking for for rhythm parts. Then a lead pedal which might have more pronounced midrange and a different distortion character, etc.

If you play guitar (I don't) and you play music with the common verse/chorus structure, then it's very likely you'll want to change your sound from one part of a tune to another, and these changes can mean EQ just as much as distortion.

[DDD]

Some overdrive and distortion circuits have very specific frequency content on their output hence require separate tone controls to produce "usual" sound as well as "exotic" timbre.

[FiveseveN]

the "flexibility" offered translates to "hard to dial in a good sound"

Only if you're a plug&play kind of user.
Since I come from a more technical background I don't think in terms of "should be a tad brighter/more open*" but "+3dB with low Q at 5KHz".
And I may be biased but I think experience brings forth this kind of precision and control. I mean, it seems obvious: when you understand how your gear works you can make it jump through all kinds of hoops.

So if you ask me an ideal tone control would be a digital paragraphic with 3 to 5 plus low and high shelf filters. Main advantages: wide range of control in a relatively small footprint and best of all, presets!
____________________
*: whatever that means.

[Mark Hammer]

EQ is almost always one of those things where the designer essentially desiogn for the unknown client with unknown needs.  It may well be the case that the pedal really only needs one tone knob to bring out its finest qualities....under the conditions in which it was origially designed and tested out.  But what are you playing and playing through?  They have no idea, so the tone controls are set to anticipate anything.

The exception to this rule can be found in many of the distortion pedals made by Ibanez and DOD, which essentially use the same underlying "engine", but insert several fixed gyrator-type circuits before and/or after the clipping stage to yield a preset voice.

[eniacmike]

My favorite pedals are "passive" on tone. I like pedals that react and sound different with different guitars/pickup combinations. Alot of times pedals  that are heavy on the EQ feel like they iron over the choices you make as a player. Even picking closer to the neck vs. closer to the bridge should make a huge difference. Maybe it's because I am going deaf but most of the time I run tone knobs cranked and any filter switches to their bright settings.

[FlyingZ]

I fully agree Barcode80. Multiple tone controls mean the designer couldn't get it tweaked so they blame it on you for not setting it right.

[DDD]

Well, there are two different opinions:
1. Less tone controls is better from the point of view of "easy to use".
2. More tone controls = versatility and more ability.
Which one is preferable? Both of them/ 

[FlyingZ]

3. The need for more then one tone control equals unresolved problems.

[Barcode80]

3. The need for more then one tone control equals unresolved problems.

I don't know that I fully agree with that. I guess I should be more specific. I'm specifically asking why people add multiple EQ knobs to their own builds. Like "I'd like to a 15 slider EQ to this Bazz Fuss" kind of questions. I'm just not betting a lot of people re-do their EQ often while playing, so why not voice it the way you want it and leave it? It really is a different strokes kind of thing, I was more looking for the reason for the different strokes, as I can't get my head around the need.

On the other hand, "need" isn't really what this hobby is about all the time, is it

[FiveseveN]

It really is a different strokes kind of thing

Yup. Some people just need a basic distortion tone (a "tone groundwork" if you will) and different shades of that for rythm/lead, verse/chorus, different tracks or what have you. In any case, filtering can make quite the difference, chielfy at high levels of saturation.

On the other hand, "need" isn't really what this hobby is about all the time, is it

Right on 

[FlyingZ]

So you're saying multiple tone controls should be trimmers?
When a shortcoming cannot be totally resolved with a resistor and cap to ground some designers will make the resistor a pot and call it another tone control.

I doubt many will have two of the same pedal with only a change in EQ but anything is possible.

[FiveseveN]

Alright, I'll bite.
What exactly would you deem a "shortcoming"?

[JKowalski]

I like versatility, so a tone control on fuzz/dist pedals is a must for me. It lets me switch into very specific "moods" while playing - bright, normal, dark. Without one I might have three pedals.

However, more than two tone controls is too much. If you design for yourself, you can usually narrow down the versatility to a range that you like with one or two knobs. One is usually my preference. If you want to be more specific than 1-2 knobs, an EQ is the answer.

[FlyingZ]

Alright, I'll bite.
What exactly would you deem a "shortcoming"?

That's up to the designer.

[WangoFett]

Do you know of a specific shortcoming in mind that you know has been solved in this way?

An added parametric or multiband or graphic EQ to an effect just seems to me more of a bonus than a repair.

Is it a shortcoming that the designer can not anticipate the exact application of his/her product?

[Top Top]

One example where it would be useful is if you do a lot of recording and want to be able to get a lot of sounds out of one box without having to build a new one or rely on external EQ.

I'll say, I personally prefer making pedals that have their own "voice" and keep controls to the minimum, but can also see the use for ones with a ton of knobs.

I also DO adjust pedals mid-show or even mid song.

[PRR]

> Multiple tone controls mean the designer couldn't get it tweaked

Commercially, the price of the product is the number of knobs plus the Watts times the brand. A lot of studio audio may be estimated as just $10/knob + $1/Watt, with high-value brands multiplied by 2.

So more knobs means a higher selling price. If a knob's actual cost is under $10, just add it! Simple tone-shaping is cheap, a pot and a cap. Delay or reverb knobs cost much more than $10 so don't get added to non-delay/reverb boxes.

The form-factor of small pedals does discourage excess knobs.... but I recall studio mixers where knobs were applied with a shotgun. Or more likely: they had a 23-knob board, they had a 37-knob board, they "needed" a 30-knob board to catch customers with an in-between amount of money in their pocket.

> why people add multiple EQ knobs to their own builds.

Why ask why?

[FiveseveN]

That's up to the designer.

Well, I have an MFA in design so I might shed some lignt on that.
A consistently designed tone-shaper could just as well have its own "signature" filtering or could offer a very wide range of options. It all depends on its purpose.
One may just as well design a peda/preamp without (simple filter-type) tone contrlos so that the user can use his preferred tone shaping (which may also be none at all) afterward. This is actually what I'm personally going toward in my future builds.

Commercially

Yes, this brings us in a whole other context. E.g. if you build an effect for yourself or for someone else who knows precisely what he wants you can be much more specific (and often simple). If you're going for a wide "audience", you have to evaluate flexibility vs. cost.

I recall studio mixers where knobs were applied with a shotgun

I would much rather have at least one semi-parametric mid control on a mixer channel than one fixed-frequency, fixed-Q one. Have you noticed the price difference? A channel strip with two mid bands is about twice the price of a channel strip with one. A strip with semiparametric mids is about ten times as much, A strip with full parametric mids (usually dual controls) about a hundred as much. Now, does that seem reasonable, seeing as we're talking among electronically-inclined peeps?!

$10/knob + $1/Watt, with high-value brands multiplied by 2

Don't forget "boutique" brands!

Why ask why?

That's a whole nother thread in and of itself.

[PRR]

> If you're going for a wide "audience", you have to evaluate flexibility vs. cost.

The buyer can't evaluate "all" the flexibility while in Banjo Center. So many toys, so little time, and the sales staff want you to shut-up and go to the checkout counter.

More knobs leaves the promise that the tone you want MIGHT be in there.

A lot of commercial marketing is "promise". If I buy a Mustang I will be hip slick and fast. If I buy vari-Hz motor controllers my factory will save electricity and Make Earth Greener (seriously- I just saw such a brochure for industrial controls, all Green promise with no dull facts).

Any buying-fool can see that more knobs just gotta be better.

(FWIW: I spent a lot of professional time *locking* knobs on gear that had too many knobs.)

> A strip with full parametric mids (usually dual controls) about a hundred as much. Now, does that seem reasonable,

99% of Banjo Center customers have no idea what you are talking about.

You don't make cheap stuff for the 1% like you.

A full para mid section costs a LOT more than a fix bandpass. Several dollars in little parts. And dual-gang *good-tracking* pots are expensive, like $10 instead of $1; two duals on concentric knobs is always special-order with high minimums (and, so I hear, large reject rates).

That several and ten dollars gets marked-up significantly from factory to store. I dunno what Banjo Center, Musician Fiend, et al take, but at another electronics retailer the dock price was 40% of the retail price.

From one mid to to two full-para mids, you are probably also getting nicer faders, better mike amps, more I/O patch points and more of them decently "balanced", better jacks, sturdier mechanicals.... and because the market for such product is small, a "higher price-point" brand name. Neve, not Beeringer.

If you don't need true para on all channels, don't mind pot-selection, don't mind larger panel instead of concentric, you can build a true para yourself.... as I bet you know.