How has DIY shaped your view of commercial pedals

[kleydj13]

Do any of you still buy pedals?  Which ones?  How do you see products on the lower end like Boss or Digitech with their PCB's and mass-produced creations designed to be made cheaply and quickly?  On the other end how do you look at something like a $400 boutique fuzz or overdrive?  How about a $400 digital delay with all the bells and whistles and top of the line emulations? 

I've spent some time on another forum (TGP) where people chase boutique pedals with a passion.  I have to say that since I started building my own pedals, I rarely consider buying a dirtbox - especially a fuzz.  They're so simple to build and you can really tailor a number of classic circuits to your ears with some simple EQ and clipping mods.  I also see through a lot of marketing, mojo, and hype now that I didn't get before. 

On the other hand I have gained an increased appreciation for some of the really well developed and designed boutique delay units. 

[Mark Hammer]

Certainly, once you know how certain things are done, and what the parts cost, it can sour you on the price-point for stuff in the so-called "boutique" realm (some of which is truly artisan, and some of which is simply people who like to build stuff they know how to build and hope someone else will subsidize their hobby by buying it).

Of course, once you have some appreciation of what a person needs to charge to meet all their development costs and overhead (which is intermittently provided here) and actually make pedals as theirfull-time living (paying their own medical insurance and dental costs, and those of any employees, as well as having money left over for car insurance and school trips for the kids), you tend to change your tune about the price-point on many things.

That being said, a good design is a good design, no matter who produces it, whether it's analog or digital, whether it has solid-state or mechanical switching, whether it is wholly new, a quality-controlled and improved replica/clone of something classic (that was traditionally hit or miss), or simply a modest attempt to make something available that hasn't been available for a while.

As many pedals as I've built, I still buy commercial ones if the feature set and price appeal to me.  Some things are simply too complex and costly to want to waste your time on when $60 and a willingness to accept digital can free up all that time.  In many instances, buying a commercial pedal is effectively a head start on what you're aiming for.  Why knock yourself out with the etching, drilling, populating, wiring, and debugging when you could buy something pre-made and mod it to what you want?  E.g., I recently bought a bashed-up Russian Small Stone for $25 - that box was whupped with an ugly stick BIG time.  Popped a couple holes in the chassis, did some quick mods, and bob's your uncle.  Could I have built it from scratch?  Sure, and probably done so in a smaller chassis that wasn't as much of an eyesore.  But $25 took care of all that nuisance, and 2hrs with a drill press and soldering took me down the home stretch.

Another thing that DIY changes about your appreciation of commercial pedals is that once you have a "tool belt" of usable ideas about how to do something, when you see a truly novel idea, you are more likely to be truly impressed by it, than would someone who just buys things because they sound cool without any real understanding of what it might have taken to accomplish that.  I think the same also goes for circuits where you know that component selection is absolutely critical to the replicability of the circuit.  In those instances, you're more likely to commend the product to others.

[slacker]

Boss are great, they make bomb proof pedals at decent prices, I've got at least 2 permanently in my gigging pedal bag. Boutique pedals I don't really have much of an opinion on, they're just supplying a section of the market same as Boss. If you pick virtually any predominantly male oriented hobby that involves any sort of gear you'll find the equivalent of boutique pedal makers and buyers.
As far as buying pedals goes, these days I tend to only buy things I couldn't make, the last two being a Boss RC2 and an EHX Cathedral reverb.

[kvandekrol]

Now that it's all been demystified, I'll probably never buy another drive or boost pedal that costs more than $40 - and then only to mod it (SD-1, DS-1, etc.). Same goes for compressors and a lot of modulation. If the commercial pedal is a clone or derivative of any sort, I can probably make my own for cheaper, and it'll sound as good or better.

In most other fields, DIY-type projects often turn out to be lower quality than commercial offerings, and you live with it because of the the feeling of accomplishment that you get. But I haven't found that to be true with stompboxes. You get the feeling of accomplishment and (usually) a better product.

I would still pay for the more innovative offerings out there that my DIY skills can't really match: TC Electronic (the Nova Repeater is the best delay I've ever played through), some EHX (the Freeze looks really interesting), reverb, and loopers. But beyond that... it's just not worth it.

[wavley]

Certainly, once you know how certain things are done, and what the parts cost, it can sour you on the price-point for stuff in the so-called "boutique" realm (some of which is truly artisan, and some of which is simply people who like to build stuff they know how to build and hope someone else will subsidize their hobby by buying it).

Of course, once you have some appreciation of what a person needs to charge to meet all their development costs and overhead (which is intermittently provided here) and actually make pedals as theirfull-time living (paying their own medical insurance and dental costs, and those of any employees, as well as having money left over for car insurance and school trips for the kids), you tend to change your tune about the price-point on many things.

That being said, a good design is a good design, no matter who produces it, whether it's analog or digital, whether it has solid-state or mechanical switching, whether it is wholly new, a quality-controlled and improved replica/clone of something classic (that was traditionally hit or miss), or simply a modest attempt to make something available that hasn't been available for a while.

As many pedals as I've built, I still buy commercial ones if the feature set and price appeal to me.  Some things are simply too complex and costly to want to waste your time on when $60 and a willingness to accept digital can free up all that time.  In many instances, buying a commercial pedal is effectively a head start on what you're aiming for.  Why knock yourself out with the etching, drilling, populating, wiring, and debugging when you could buy something pre-made and mod it to what you want?  E.g., I recently bought a bashed-up Russian Small Stone for $25 - that box was whupped with an ugly stick BIG time.  Popped a couple holes in the chassis, did some quick mods, and bob's your uncle.  Could I have built it from scratch?  Sure, and probably done so in a smaller chassis that wasn't as much of an eyesore.  But $25 took care of all that nuisance, and 2hrs with a drill press and soldering took me down the home stretch.

Another thing that DIY changes about your appreciation of commercial pedals is that once you have a "tool belt" of usable ideas about how to do something, when you see a truly novel idea, you are more likely to be truly impressed by it, than would someone who just buys things because they sound cool without any real understanding of what it might have taken to accomplish that.  I think the same also goes for circuits where you know that component selection is absolutely critical to the replicability of the circuit.  In those instances, you're more likely to commend the product to others.

Perfectly said.

By the way, what were you doing with a drill press and that small stone, I am also the owner of an ugly as sin russian small stone and have thought a few times of modding it, of course I bought mine new years ago for like $60, but it has served me well unlike that good for nothing ungrateful original small clone of mine.

[tiges_ tendres]

I rarely buy pedals anymore.  When I do, it's either something I can't DIY (EHX Freeze), is cheaper for me to buy than build (Behringer's clones of out of production pedals), or is broken and is affordable due to needing repair.

I'd say the main way DIY has shaped my view of commercial pedals is that I am much more aware (and hence bitter) about the internals of pedals.  The endless stream of Tubescreamer and fuzz clones is completely befuddling to me.  As are companies that release the same pedal 10 times with minor component changes and give them a different name  (Lovepedal, Devi Ever, get to the back of the line).  Smart for business, but sucky for players

[DougH]

I tend to buy more complex stuff like delays or DSP stuff for example, or just things that are a good price that I don't feel like building. Oddly enough, I've gained more respect for meat&potato mfrs like Boss and Ibanez over the years. I have some Boss pedals that are nearly 30 yrs old and they all function perfectly. My cots TS9 is buillt very solidly as well. I've also learned that "boutique" is all over the map. Unfortunately, what used to be assumed to be higher-end or higher quality has been tainted somewhat by everyone and his brother jumping into the pile, many who are inexperienced, and many who really don't understand the electronics industry in general. Like the audiophile market, some of it gets very weird as you see some things with very marginal build quality demanding exorbitant prices. OTOH there are many who put out high quality products and some at much more than reasonable prices. But like I said- all over the map and you kind of have to know who's who. I don't generally buy commercial distortions, esp boutique, as they are so simple to build, I have so many already and so forth. But as Mark mentioned, modding is fun and is an easy way to get what you really want without the more tedious aspects of building. I recently modded an inexpensive amp into something that sounds really great to my ears. It was much easier than building an amp from scratch.

[spargo]

Since building pedals I have built what I would consider to be better (for me) versions of most of the pedals I already had on my board.  I've replaced and sold all mass manufactured pedals on my board as a result except a reverb, eventide pedals, and volume pedals (all hard or impossible for me to build).  I just can't justify the $150 cost for some pedals of lower quality parts than I can build for $30.  It's appealing when I can sell a pedal for $90 and built a clone of it of similar or better quality for $15.  Plus, I tend to be able to miniaturize more.  I just built a pedal in a 1x3" enclosure (1590A) to replace one on my board that was in a 4.7x3.7" enclosure.  Saves me space, really important.  Plus, they all look cooler. 

[MikeH]

Yeah I pretty much won't buy anything I can build.  Even if it's not that much cheaper to build it, at least I get to have the learning experience/sense of accomplishment , as well as the option to customize as I see fit, that comes along with the DIY experience.

That said, it has both given me a new-found admiration for some builders, and a new-found cynicism for others.

It's also made me want to DIY in other realms of my life:  Wife: "I think we need a new stove."  Me: "Hmmm... I bet I could build one of those.  I mean, how complex could it be?"

[jacobyjd]

There are 2 lines that I use to determine whether or not to buy something or build it:

1. Something I can build vs. something I can't build (EHX HOG for instance)
     -If something falls below this line, I'll consider building it before buying it--this is usually a pretty clear picture.

2. Something that would cost more in time, money or swear words vs. something that is a reasonable amount of cash (i.e. EHX Holy Grail Nano--yes, I could try a Belton module; yes, I could try something with PT2399s, but is it worth it to me? Not really.)

Other than that, my main consideration is whether or not it will meet my needs. I don't really like to mod things, so if a commercial pedal does 80% of what I want it to do and would fall beneath the 'I can build this, AND it'll be worth it' lines, I'll build it. A good example of this is the Seek Wah that I've been working on. It's not cost-effective for me to buy it, PLUS, I'm adding features that are otherwise unavailable in a commercial product to my build.

[Pablo1234]

I have owned Craig Andtertons Book scene I was 16, that's 20 years and ultimately Almost all of the advice he gives in the back is still relevant today. I don't buy commercial stuff with the exception of T.C Electronics stuff that is a 2nd system for me to compare quality with what I have made. I would never buy a Clone. I would buy a so called boutique if it where a complete system, not just an effect. That rules out practical everything I have played with.

When I stopped reading and started making systems my approach was to make complete systems, not just an effect. This is simply because I believe even the low end boxes have uses but only in systems where their matched and tuned together. Give me an old Gorilla amp and some really crappy effects and I can make them sound good with enough cheap mods and component upgrades. Currently I have 4 Guitar systems I use for various things, one of them being recording at home. This system is actually a surround sound DVD player with the small 3"x5" speakers placed around 3 mics and a custom comp/pre/phase/chorus/delay reverb system I made with various salvaged boards/components I had from my G.A.S. (Gear/Guitar Acquisition Syndrome) days. My main playing out system is similar to the previous system but all the effects are personal designs laid out from scratch and ordered parts in a Mesa Road King 2 rig. then I have my tinker setup that is a 4'x3' laminate board with 20 or so small boards laid out and I use terminal strips to make the connections. It has all my LFO's, Effects, Power Supplies and test circuits laid out so I can prototype complete systems. My last system is a bunch of T.C Electronics Peddles and 1 T.C.Electronics rack in a Peavey Classic 30 amp. This last setup is so I can create good sounds with slandered equipment and then try and model it with custom circuits. A reference system so too speak, but this system is the only one that I will ever buy manufactured effects for.

[Electron Tornado]

I'll echo what Mark and Doug said.

I can see through much of the hype, and don't care for it. I also don't care for slap-dash being passed off as "boutique", but I do really appreciate something that is well done or sounds interesting, whether it's production or boutique. I had a chem prof who was into brewing and winemaking who offerred these wise words, "No matter how cheap or expensive a wine is, in the end, all that matters is: do you like it?" In pedals, just as with wine, for some tastes, the only real difference between a $50 pedal and a $500 dollar pedal is $450.

I tend to not buy a commercial version of a pedal if I can, or would prefer, to build and customize it myself. I may, however, buy a kit if the circuit is a bit more involved or I don't want to spend the time doing a layout or sourcing parts. If there's a commercial pedal I want to mod, I might buy a used one if I can find it for a reasonable price.  I think I've only ever bought 4 pedals that were brand new, in the box, with that new pedal smell, 3 of which were the budget plastic kind.

[Mark Hammer]

DIY skills permit one to mod things up to the hilt...and beyond.  At a certain point, though, there's no room left on the chassis, or no room to stuff all those interconnecting wires, or else after you've done all your mods and installed all those options you realize that a lot of it doesn't really add value.

At that point, DIY heightens your appreciation of commercial pedals that have selected which bells and whistles to include and which to leave out.  It gives you a lot of respect for a product that has made wise choices about the feature set.  The wisdom might be expressed in retaining a couple of features that provide, let's say, the broadest range of "personalities" with the fewest steps required.  Or, alternatively, that wisdom might be expressed in retaining those features that make it dead easy to get a usable sound any time you want to.  It might be expressed in the choice of the range a few simple controls cover (e.g., an LFO rate control that goes a little slower AND a little faster than the competition).

Whatever the case, when being a DIY-er lets you know exactly how many choices ARE possible, you acquire greater respect for products that know how to pick 'em.

[LucifersTrip]

I like 60's fuzzes most ...and since they're relatively simple, I can mod them exactly how I want. I just can't buy anything that would be modded exactly to my ear...plus, no one makes skull enclosures yet.

[John M]

I guess like most musicians I have always been chasing a sound that is in my head. While good old Boss pedals started off being my pedal of choice (way pre DIY) I then discovered the work of Paul Crowther and Robert Keeley and this got me a lot closer to what I was wanting to hear. I then started thinking "what if this pedal could do a bit more of this.. or do this slightly different thus etc". Luckily I then discovered Brian Wampler's books which helped me get even closer with his mods and that pointed me in the direction of this great website which has changed my tonal life. So, after this whole process what do I have stock/boutique? A TC Electronic reverb, because that is all way beyond my understanding and a Hotcake as it is a sound I always come back to (although I have built some variations of it that could just as easily be on the pedalboard). Modded I have a Boss DD3 and a CE2 that was originally modded by Keeley and to which I have done additional work. All the rest is DIY and does what I want that in a lot of cases I don't believe can be bought commercially. A good example is my booster. It is Jack Orman's mini-booster. I have added a Keeley Java Boost style full/middle-treble/treble switch. A presence control so that with the middle-treble setting you can get a mid boost exactly as you want it. A voltage limiting pot to add in grit and a switch to switch between two volume knobs so that you can have some rhythm break-up and a solo boost.

So, to answer the question. I believe I would not have got to the tone I have today had I not had the stepping stone of boutique pedals. I also believe that for a large majority of guitarists, that will be their pinnacle in that as much as I point them towards this site and the DIY way, they can't be bothered to put in the effort it takes (they however don't seem to be too bothered to ask me to build them a "boutique" pedal at a non-boutique price). Though while personally I would not go back to boutique pedals unless it was something where I could get the sound I heard in my head and was beyond my understanding, I think they are a god-send to the average guitarist as us DIYers are a small minority.

[Philippe]

There are 2 lines that I use to determine whether or not to buy something or build it:

1. Something I can build vs. something I can't build (EHX HOG for instance)

2. Something that would cost more in time, money or swear words vs. something that is a reasonable amount of cash

This is the key insight & perhaps the common sense approach to the entire DIY thing.

For example...While it would be totally convenient to simply buy an Analogman Orange Juicer & have it onboard, just about anyone can build an Orange Squeezer. The same goes for a Fuzz Face, Bad Bob or Tubescreamer.

[R.G.]

It brings home the true meaning of "No man is a hero to his valet." as the Brits once said.   

[Strategy]

I posted about this in a similar thread, I bought an Octavia instead of building one, I think because I admire Roger Mayer and find the spaceship boxes to be a mini work of art and fun slice of pedal history. That's an exception to the "buy only stuff I can't build" which seems to be common.

I love to buy used washed-up pedals that often sound glorious. They often need a new pot here or there. Digitech's "PDS" series yields some $15 gems, their dual channel yellow distortion pedal with two stomp switches is a riot and has more controls on DIP switches inside that are just asking to be brought to the front or two a sidecar box. I think I love that era of used pedals, old Digitech; Vestafire; A/DA, others.

Strategy

[DougH]

DIY skills permit one to mod things up to the hilt...and beyond.  At a certain point, though, there's no room left on the chassis, or no room to stuff all those interconnecting wires, or else after you've done all your mods and installed all those options you realize that a lot of it doesn't really add value.

At that point, DIY heightens your appreciation of commercial pedals that have selected which bells and whistles to include and which to leave out.  It gives you a lot of respect for a product that has made wise choices about the feature set.  The wisdom might be expressed in retaining a couple of features that provide, let's say, the broadest range of "personalities" with the fewest steps required.  Or, alternatively, that wisdom might be expressed in retaining those features that make it dead easy to get a usable sound any time you want to.  It might be expressed in the choice of the range a few simple controls cover (e.g., an LFO rate control that goes a little slower AND a little faster than the competition).

Whatever the case, when being a DIY-er lets you know exactly how many choices ARE possible, you acquire greater respect for products that know how to pick 'em.

To be honest, I'm kind of horrified with the idea of modding a commercial pedal. After making the investment, I don't want to touch it. I fixed a problem with my Phase 100 and caused another which I now need to fix and etc. I have a solder sucker now so I'm more confident in my skills, but still in general I don't like reworking commercial pcb's, especially tiny ones.

For me, amps are a different story. There's a considerable amount of machining, mechanical work and woodworking that goes into building an amp from scratch. I love doing that but it does take time. On the rare occasion I find an amp that's affordable, easy to work on, and a good candidate for modding into something more interesting, I'll jump in.

[ayayay!]

In thinking about it, the only real differences that have changed my opinions would be more mechanically driven. 

For instance, I still think the Boss style and footprint is the epitome of usefullness:  They fit great on a board and don't fail.   

A Danelectro Daddy O on the other hand, would be a fine pedal if modified a bit and put into a good box.  Otherwise it's not very useful.

I'm still not crazy about 3PDT switching, as there are much better ways to do it, but I often do it for sake of ease. 

I like pots that don't just "freewheel" and I/O jacks that grab a connector well.  LED's I can see whether my foot is on the pedal or not...

Things like that.  It has shaped my opinions there very much, but it has to catch my ear first.