NOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOOOP

[MmmPedals]

Just thinking out loud.
I believe gooping a circuit is pointless. not because some will eventually degoop it but because most people don't know or care what's inside, just what it sounds like. Marketing is a huge part of selling a product and I don't believe that a schematic out in the open would hurt sales. If someone would make an "OCD" clone and try to sell it as that most people would say "well I want the original". Look at dan electro. even the cool cat series which is high quality build is looked down at because it's "cheap".

To show you that I stand by my rant I hope to soon show you guys a unique tremelo I plan on selling. still got lots of work to do on it but it's cool...At least I think so.

[Electron Tornado]

OK, but you have to use "NOOOO GOOOOOP" in either the name of the pedal or the brand name or you lose all credibility.   

[mattusmattus]

I think the manufacturer has every right to goop a pedal. If the idea is truly unique and the engineering is clever (i.e. ultra simple and innovative) then why shouldn't they attempt to maximise the mystery behind it. It does look very unprofessional though.

I bet if if you told us your tremolo concept quite a few people on here could give you a schematic by the end of the day.

[MmmPedals]

I have no problem with manufactures gooping. Of course they have the right to do it. I just dont think they benefit from it.
The tremelo concept is not mine. Its an old pedal that some guy tried to start selling and never took off. I traced it and I am working on drawing the schematic. It may take a while though because my skills are weak.

[Mark Hammer]

There was a time when gooping was a plausible strategy to deploy to protect your circuit.  Prior to that it was sanding the identity of the chips and/or transistors off the individual units.  Of course, as time and knowledge marched on, people were able to first find ways of identifying the chip based on pinouts and other easily identifiable properties, and then eventually find ways of removing goop without destroying the board, or else boards that were cheap enough you didn't mind destroying them to reveal their secrets.

These days, there would appear to be two principal ways of "protecting" one's circuit from curious competitive eyes: using multilayer SMT boards, such that discerning what goes where is a VERY labour-intensive exercise (and remember, this construction technique lets you easily include "decoy" components, if you want, that can appear to go somewhere but actually don'), and going digital such that the critical aspects are in the code rather than in the connections between components.

[MetalUpYerEye]

Its too bad you can't get caps with false values on them...

[Mark Hammer]

Ah, but you can!  Those in the know refer to these as "component tolerances".

You have to think of what's written on the component as simply a pretty good guess.  One of the main reasons why you can never quite get your pedal to sound like another one that is ostensibly the same.

[R.G.]

For reference, Dirty Tricks 101, Geofex.

I'm firmly convinced that gooping, dirty tricks, etc. are passe. In the computer industry, it's a cliche that you can't survive if you don't kill and eat your children - that is, produce newer and faster versions that obsolete your past best efforts.

The best survival technique is probably not to hide, but to outrun them.

[MetalUpYerEye]

Ah, but you can!  Those in the know refer to these as "component tolerances".

You have to think of what's written on the component as simply a pretty good guess.  One of the main reasons why you can never quite get your pedal to sound like another one that is ostensibly the same.

True, but then thats also to say that all production pedals are slightly different as well due to tolerances.

Plus it would be difficult to find a cap that is the marked the wrong value but is the value you want because of its tolerance. Maybe not difficult to find one, but difficult to find enough to put in all the hand-wired pedals you build to throw off would-be pedal hackers (us).

You might be better off using a plastic battery compartment and simply using screws with security bit heads on them for your covers. Its not going to stop everyone but it will keep some people out.

[Kearns892]

For reference, Dirty Tricks 101, Geofex.

I'm firmly convinced that gooping, dirty tricks, etc. are passe. In the computer industry, it's a cliche that you can't survive if you don't kill and eat your children - that is, produce newer and faster versions that obsolete your past best efforts.

The best survival technique is probably not to hide, but to outrun them.

Haha. Good read. Some of those are very dirty R.G. ...

[slacker]

I'm with MmmPedals, for the most part, the people buying the product in the first place aren't the same people who want to clone it, it's two completely different "markets". I'd guess, the vast majority of pedal buyers have no idea this community even exists.

[DougH]

For reference, Dirty Tricks 101, Geofex.

I'm firmly convinced that gooping, dirty tricks, etc. are passe. In the computer industry, it's a cliche that you can't survive if you don't kill and eat your children - that is, produce newer and faster versions that obsolete your past best efforts.

The best survival technique is probably not to hide, but to outrun them.

That's pretty much the way every facet of the electronics industry I've ever dealt with has worked. Whether you're building guitar pedals or PLCs, you have to outrun the competition to stay in business. You share info that's to everyone's benefit (e.g. standardization etc) and keep moving. No place for someone who wants to sit on their ass and nurse one 'speshul' idea the rest of their career. State of the art advances too quickly and paradigms shift too fast.

[Electron Tornado]

The real question is not whether to goop, but how to compete successfully. Everyone makes just about the same widget, so you need to be like the six million dollar man - better, stronger, faster, and in this case economical. (If it looks like you're in slow motion when you run, and you can do that bionic eye sound effect thing, then you've also got mojo.)

With effects pedals and amps, the vast majority of your customers are more musician than technician. They buy them to use them, not to open them up and fiddle with them as soon as they get them home.

There is really not much new under the sun in pedals. Given some specs and a description of a pedal's function, a decent engineer will be able to come up with a reasonable, or even improved copy. While pedal makers are a dime a dozen these days, I'll bet that not all of them are highly experienced with electronics nor are they all engineers. So, can you build something that's unique? Maybe. Can it be copied by someone with the knowledge, time, and motivation? Absolutely. Does every boutique pedal maker have enough of those? No. Have Boss, Dunlop or Electro Harmonix been pushed aside by the multitude of pedal makers (or DIY kit makers)? No.

[Gus]

The issue is it is harder to repair something that is gooped.  

[CynicalMan]

For reference, Dirty Tricks 101, Geofex.

I'm firmly convinced that gooping, dirty tricks, etc. are passe. In the computer industry, it's a cliche that you can't survive if you don't kill and eat your children - that is, produce newer and faster versions that obsolete your past best efforts.

The best survival technique is probably not to hide, but to outrun them.

That's pretty much the way every facet of the electronics industry I've ever dealt with has worked. Whether you're building guitar pedals or PLCs, you have to outrun the competition to stay in business. You share info that's to everyone's benefit (e.g. standardization etc) and keep moving. No place for someone who wants to sit on their ass and nurse one 'speshul' idea the rest of their career. State of the art advances too quickly and paradigms shift too fast.

But, in the music industry, there isn't the same rush to new and exciting technologies. Manufacturers can get away with not coming up with any real innovations and still make money off of their old ones.

Aside from being paranoid, I think goopers are trying to make a lasting name for themselves by giving their pedals a certain mystique, and making it harder for someone to say, "Hey, that's just a TS copy." Even in pedals, a pedal that becomes a "classic" makes more money than one that's only an innovation. (TS, Klon, Univibe, FF, Wah, etc.)

There is really not much new under the sun in pedals. Given some specs and a description of a pedal's function, a decent engineer will be able to come up with a reasonable, or even improved copy. While pedal makers are a dime a dozen these days, I'll bet that not all of them are highly experienced with electronics nor are they all engineers. So, can you build something that's unique? Maybe. Can it be copied by someone with the knowledge, time, and motivation? Absolutely. Does every boutique pedal maker have enough of those? No. Have Boss, Dunlop or Electro Harmonix been pushed aside by the multitude of pedal makers (or DIY kit makers)? No.

And I think the big companies are where any real innovation is going to come from rather than the boutiquers, especially Boss and EHX. They are coming up with pedals that have innovative and creative features that are very hard to copy. Instead of running on old application note circuits, they are turning to digital technologies that boutique companies generally don't have the resources or knowledge to use. Boss has COSM, EHX has been coming out with a stunning array of digital effects, and most other companies are coming out with just more vintage-style fuzzes and overdrives. Granted, there are a couple of exceptions. Zvex has very clever and useful circuits for the most part, Empress has been coming out with nice analog-digital hybrids, but for the most part, they don't have the volume to compete with the prices that the big companies offer.

[Scruffie]

The issue is it is harder to repair something that is gooped.  

That and my problem with it is... is if it's gooped, it never is anything new or innovative, it's usually covering up 'I spent ages changing values and copying bits of circuits so now it's my design... but I don't want anyone else to know' well atleast from what i've seen, I can't think of a really innovative gooped design.

[DougH]

The issue is it is harder to repair something that is gooped.  

That's true Gus, but it also depends on how you define your LRU. If it's the board itself, you just throw it away and install a new one. Even simpler if you use molex connectors or something for your wiring rig. I'm not justifying gooping, just sayin'...

But, in the music industry, there isn't the same rush to new and exciting technologies. Manufacturers can get away with not coming up with any real innovations and still make money off of their old ones.

True Alex, and I have to ask the question I asked in another thread- why do SD1s, DS1s, TS9s, etc still sell after all these years? Schematics have been available forever, nothing spectacular or earth shaking techno-wise about them, yet they still sell. Why?

[MmmPedals]

True Alex, and I have to ask the question I asked in another thread- why do SD1s, DS1s, TS9s, etc still sell after all these years? Schematics have been available forever, nothing spectacular or earth shaking techno-wise about them, yet they still sell. Why?

The reason they sell is because people know about them and hear good things about them....MARKETING.
Thats exactly the point of my original post. Most people dont know or care about the guts only about what sounds good and has a good reputation.

[Gurner]

I know this puts me in the minority (& out of favour)...but I say GOOOOOOOOOOP!

Ive spent waaaaay too many an hour hunched over a breadboard to gift what I have pulled together to others on a plate.

Sure, I know there are folks out there who can de-goop, establish what ICs are in play etc..... but I am not so conceited to think Ive a blockbuster product to attract their attention in the first place.

To those that say run faster - what about the safety pin, paper clip ....perfect for their intended purpose - what if you come up with the equivalent circuit? (ie there is nowhere to run faster to!)

[gmoon]

To those that say run faster - what about the safety pin, paper clip ....perfect for their intended purpose - what if you come up with the equivalent circuit? (ie there is nowhere to run faster to!)

Sure there is. It's called "increased productivity" (and eventually offshore manufacturing...)