Hughes & Kettner Rotosphere

[Mark Hammer]

Is it just me or do people simply choose to ignore that the rotating speaker cabinet was NOT developed under the presumption that it would be moved on a regular basis.  That's why they weigh so much.  So, even though Motion Sound may have made giant strides in size/mass reduction for rotating speakers (and good on them for that), I think the fact remains that you can't expect to jostle it, and stick it in various orientations, as much in load-out, transit, and setup, as you would a drum case or a 4x12 cab.  Pretending that because it's small you can stick it riiiiiiiiight.....there, if you tilt it on its side, makes about as much sense as thinking that because your pet cheetah allows itself to be on a leash, and doesn't run away, you can leave it alone with your preschooler.

[wavley]

Is it just me or do people simply choose to ignore that the rotating speaker cabinet was NOT developed under the presumption that it would be moved on a regular basis.  That's why they weigh so much.  So, even though Motion Sound may have made giant strides in size/mass reduction for rotating speakers (and good on them for that), I think the fact remains that you can't expect to jostle it, and stick it in various orientations, as much in load-out, transit, and setup, as you would a drum case or a 4x12 cab.  Pretending that because it's small you can stick it riiiiiiiiight.....there, if you tilt it on its side, makes about as much sense as thinking that because your pet cheetah allows itself to be on a leash, and doesn't run away, you can leave it alone with your preschooler.

This is totally true, I have no idea what the guy was doing to that motion sound thing, I only ever saw it when it came into the shop as I don't tend to go to dead tribute shows.  I don't really remember it being an abuse issue as much as it being a lot of moving parts issue.  I baby my space echoes, but if I don't keep a constant watchful eye on them and go through the whole service manual once a year, they go to crap pretty quick and they pretty much only get basement use these days.

[joegagan]

i tried a quickie pan/stereo experiment to see how close i could get to the leslie sound with a stereo phaser and two amps . one set bassy, the other trebly.
phaser was a fancy maxon ph-350, stereo outs to two amps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7F4qDFss28

the abive setup sounded pretty damn good in the room.

will try more with a chorus and phase to only one side side, see if i can get it a little more lush.

[Mark Hammer]

Joe, Joe, Joe....luv ya like a brother, but a phaser is not and can not be a Leslie, nor can a chorus.  Yes, you can improve upon their aesthetics and swirliness by using stereo feeds (and you have clearly done so), but there will always be a few significant realities that make actual Leslies hard to fake with other kinds of pedals, even when you do inject some motion, synthetic or otherwise:

1) There is a subtle variable lowpass filtering that occurs as the horn points away from you and towards you.  This is over and above whatever Doppler filtering occurs.
2) There is a subtle amplitude modulation that occurs as the horn points away from you and towards you.  Again, over and above what the Doppler filtering does.
3) Rotating speakers are an inherently "post-production" effect, insomuch as the Doppler/lowpass/amplitude-modulation stuff is mapped on at the very end of the signal chain, well after whatever distortion, compression, and other thingies are generated by the signal path.

The apocryphal story I love to tell incessantly concerns a visit to my home a few years ago by fellow Ottawa resident Tim Larwill, who makes the very excellent Retro-Sonic CE-1 clone (now in stereo!).  Tim makes a great pedal, but he too thought that somehow he had a grasp of rotating speaker sounds, having heard them largely on record.  I asked him "Have you ever used one?".  "No".  "Would you like to try one?".  "Sure".  So I plugged my cheesy Vibratone cab, taken from a Kawai home organ, into the speaker out of my tweed Princeton, and let him have his way.  "Holy s**t!".  Tim realized that having a very good grasp of chorus pedals does not translate into rotating speakers.  This is probably why people are so impressed with anything that moves in the direction of rotating speakers, even if it doesn't quite nail it.   Set yourself up in front of a rotating cab, and you will simply fall in love with any chord that has open strings in it.

[joegagan]

of course i knew that mark. i am trying to illustrate what happens when you try different things.
here is a second phaser added to the feed to one of the amps after a stereo arion phaser. guitar>arion stereo out1>maxon phaser> amp, arion stereo out2>amp 2.

yes, i know it sounds phaser-y.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cMVOXtoAA

[joegagan]

there is a more complex swirl added by the two sets of wobbles crossing over. again, much better in person here at my house. wish you were here

[DougH]

of course i knew that mark. i am trying to illustrate what happens when you try different things.
here is a second phaser added to the feed to one of the amps after a stereo arion phaser. guitar>arion stereo out1>maxon phaser> amp, arion stereo out2>amp 2.

yes, i know it sounds phaser-y.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cMVOXtoAA

Hey Joe, did you ever notice how many videos there are on youtube with the title "DSCF5720"? 

[joegagan]

yes,  this is the cameras odometer, i suppose you knew that. that means i have taken 5700 images or vids since oct 07 when i got this fuji.

i knew a pro photographer who said it is common to shoot up to 1000 images in a day,  so i guess i am not a pro.

[Gordo]

If your try out the L6 rotomachine (or behringer clone) you will be ahead of the game.

+1 on the L6.  Interestingly my L6 MM4 leslie sim (and the univibe) sounds really wimpy but the rotomachine sounds great.  I love using it into a clean channel and dial in a little dirt on the pedal to get that nice driven leslie "rip".  Got it cheap on eBay.

[DougH]

The apocryphal story I love to tell incessantly concerns a visit to my home a few years ago by fellow Ottawa resident Tim Larwill, who makes the very excellent Retro-Sonic CE-1 clone (now in stereo!).  Tim makes a great pedal, but he too thought that somehow he had a grasp of rotating speaker sounds, having heard them largely on record.  I asked him "Have you ever used one?".  "No".  "Would you like to try one?".  "Sure".  So I plugged my cheesy Vibratone cab, taken from a Kawai home organ, into the speaker out of my tweed Princeton, and let him have his way.  "Holy s**t!".  Tim realized that having a very good grasp of chorus pedals does not translate into rotating speakers.  This is probably why people are so impressed with anything that moves in the direction of rotating speakers, even if it doesn't quite nail it.   Set yourself up in front of a rotating cab, and you will simply fall in love with any chord that has open strings in it.

My wife & I used to go regularly to see a local blues band that had a guy with a b3 with a leslie cab (a big 422 or something similar). It is a very different experience hearing that live in a room than it is listening to a leslie on a recording, no matter how it's mic'ed. IMO, you will never get there without a point source throwing the sound around in a circle the way a real leslie does it. IOW, not gonna happen through a guitar cabinet. Heck, my aunt's cheez-whiz home console organ with plinkety-plink "percussion" and a built-in leslie sounds more "3d" than anything you'll ever hear from a guitar cabinet.

Having said that, let's step back and examine our goals a little... You're not going to get "true leslie 3d" out of a guitar cab whether it's two cabs in stereo or not, due to the physics of how the sound is produced. So let's forget about that - Most people hear the sound in a recording and decide "I want that sound". For them I say, yes that's attainable with an electronic gizmo you can plug into your amp. And if you can run it in stereo you can get some spatiality- not exactly the same as a leslie but very nice nonetheless. If you get the warbly aggressive fast speed, a little overdrive (if desired), the slow spin up/down, maybe a brake function, the correct EQ- you are a good ways towards a pretty reasonable facsimile of the "leslie sound", without breaking your back from carrying a big cabinet around. So forget "simulation" or "emulation" to the nth degree- the pedal will fail every time in an A/B test. Instead, think of it in terms of what sounds "good" and this gets a lot easier.

[DougH]

yes,  this is the cameras odometer, i suppose you knew that. that means i have taken 5700 images or vids since oct 07 when i got this fuji.

i knew a pro photographer who said it is common to shoot up to 1000 images in a day,  so i guess i am not a pro.

No I didn't know that. I figured it was some sort of file naming convention certain brands of cameras use.

The video sounds good. I've tried doing that sort of thing with separate swirly stuff on each channel. It sounds good but it's not really a "leslie" sound IMO.

[joegagan]

Having said that, let's step back and examine our goals a little... You're not going to get "true leslie 3d" out of a guitar cab whether it's two cabs in stereo or not, due to the physics of how the sound is produced. So let's forget about that - Most people hear the sound in a recording and decide "I want that sound". For them I say, yes that's attainable with an electronic gizmo you can plug into your amp. And if you can run it in stereo you can get some spatiality- not exactly the same as a leslie but very nice nonetheless. If you get the warbly aggressive fast speed, a little overdrive (if desired), the slow spin up/down, maybe a brake function, the correct EQ- you are a good ways towards a pretty reasonable facsimile of the "leslie sound", without breaking your back from carrying a big cabinet around. So forget "simulation" or "emulation" to the nth degree- the pedal will fail every time in an A/B test. Instead, think of it in terms of what sounds "good" and this gets a lot easier.

i agree,. that is why i like this thread. all of the angles are being discussed.

[Fredenando]

I am pleased that we can talk and raise many different options.

One of the options that I've raised me, would be the possibility of constructing a Leslie "smaller", a "Mini Leslie" that would meet the needs of sound, transport, or as in my case, space at home.

Some ideas that I will like consider:

- The woofer should be a minimum 10 "inches (25.4cm)
- The drum can be constructed with polyurethane for example
- The motors can be DC 12V, which would be simple to be controlled with an easy  and little circuitry, and in addition to being cheap and readily available.
- For the top and the treble, I've been thinking about the possibility of using a small compression tweeter, 1 "inch (2.54cm) with a small trumpet counterbalanced design that could be studied.
- Perhaps also a small transistor amplifier for about 20/30 Watts, or maybe without amp, or maybe... a little tube amp like a Fender Champ?

With this concept could be in a size of approximately 35x35x60 cm. Ideal for keeping at home and transport, because it would have too much weight.

Well, this is only some ideas... probably foolish!


Note: Here I have found some specification data over some real Leslies: http://b3world.com/lesliespec.html

[Hides-His-Eyes]

Perhaps a fender champ 600, or an epiphone valve junior head? Both small enough to transport with the unit...

[wavley]

Find yourself a Lowrey organ on craigslist (hopefully a non-working one) and take it apart, oh yeah... make sure it's the kind with a built in Leslie.  I made my own Vibratone with one of the ones with a 10" speaker and rotating drum.  Granted, I don't have a top rotor for full on Leslie love, but this is something that I've been thinking about how to do easily.

Also, you can get a bunch of cool buttons, transistors, optocouplers, and all sorts of other cool stuff out of them.  I found mine on a curb and it didn't work so it was no real loss to take it apart, though I did have to slam on the brakes and it slid forward and bent the bed of my new truck, so I guess I did pay a cost.  If this happens to you, then just add a toolbox and no one will see your bent truck.

[DougH]

Here's a simple lo-fi leslie- stick a box fan in front of your speaker cabinet. Remote the switch for hi/lo speeds.

[Taylor]

I think that's more like a ring modulator...

[DougH]

Depends on the speed. Also, the fan throws the speaker air around in a somewhat circular direction. It's surprising how pleasing this can sound.

[wavley]

Here's a simple lo-fi leslie- stick a box fan in front of your speaker cabinet. Remote the switch for hi/lo speeds.

When I lived in Tampa one of those death metal guys, I think it was Rob from Cannibal Corpse said he did that on a record and put the microphone in a fish bowl to minimize fan noise.

[petemoore]

  Transitional 360 degree speaker array.
  The volume is transferred to the next speaker in rotation, six or so speakers in-360 degree orientation instead of 1 speaker and a baffle.
  Plenty of drawbacks.
  I liked the idea of horn and separate-but-assynchronized low frequency warble [additional amp and speaker required and generally available.
  Because the HF's carry most of the intillect frequencies, some associated bass wobble [tremolo or whatever] would seem all that is necessary to sort of emulate Leslie sound...and still be movable.
  The hard part of Diy for this is getting the 2 conductors which connect to the spinning horn. I used a phono plug centered and protruding from a phonograph platter, with contact point 'brushes', it worked for my smallwatt horns [2 horns mounted/balanced on phonograph: 16, 33-1/3, and 78 rpm settings.
  Greater smoothness in the midrange and more midrange in the horn was the first noticable 'thing' with it [cheap horns], the horn and driver qualities as well as the Eq/amp/Xover point driving it of course make or break it for the application.
  Another phonograph-leslie had a 12'' GB enclosed in downfacing box driving the spinning baffle [some balance work needed to keep the baffle from wobbling.
  When taking near surface wave reflections into account that are 1x, 10x, or 30x [depending on the room] difference in distance from the speedy whirling driver/baffle are exposed to doppler-ed waves, typical phase, tremolo and LFO's don't bump, jump, bounce and bend like that. Nor are they able to mimic the symmetry/assymetry of the various wave-bends [phase delays, pitch variances, amplitude dynamics.
  Leslies have limitations, distance from the listener directly lessens the depth of the effect. Stereo leslie simulator may be more apparent when attempting to produce leslie like sounds at greater distances.