Effects order switcher.... in STEREO!?!??!

[SpankyPants]

Hello! I'm trying to make an effects order inverter (like this) in stereo. I'm pretty new to DIY stuff, so the simpler the better. I'm assuming there must be some other _PDT switch that I could wire up just like the mono version...

Any thoughts? 

[jefe]

If you could find some kind of 5PDT switch, that would work. Or, you could use a 4PDT toggle switch, do away with the indicator LEDs, and instead use that pole for the other half of your stereo signal. The direction of the switch's bat would be your indicator, i.e. if the bat is leaning toward the right, then the effect on the right comes first, and viceversa for the left.

P.s. - welcome to the forum, and I love the name! Spankypants, lol..

[joegagan]

hats off to dano for this nice design+great presentation format.  i think you are basically going to have to build two of the units pictured.

are you talking about order switching two stereo effects, one in and two outs on each? we need to know the format of the pedals you are trying to reverse to know how many poles are needed. where are you sending these signals? do they remain stereo down the line? regardless, it is a lot. if it can be done with 6 poles, use two identical 3pdts ( don't mix 2 types of swithces) since some sort of device will need to be implemented to switch both at once, keep the mechnical equation balanced.

couple ideas for co-switching two switches:

if i had enough time, i would design/build some sort of handsome hinged piece to switch two stompers at the same time.

if i was in a hurry, i would buy a hinge like this and cut away the tab sticking up in the middle, mount it to hit two stomp type switches at once.


if stomping is not required,

i have access to these locally, could send two for 15 shipped if needed. i would design a sliding or hinged actuator to rock these two at a time, using some sort of rubber interface to reduce mech shock to the switch.

[trjones1]

Use the cd4053 switching system at Geofex.  You'll need 2 4053s, but you can control them both from the same switch. 

You need at least a 3pdt switch to swap the order of effects, meaning you'd need a 6pdt to do it in stereo.  You're not going to find a mechanical switch (or if you do, it will be ridiculously expensive) to do this job.  While the 4053 switcher is a little more complicated, it will do exactly what you want.

[jefe]

Yeah, looking at beavis's diagram again.. disregard what I said earlier. A 5PDT would not do the job, nor would the 4PDT toggle. My caffeine hadn't kicked in earlier, sorry about that.

[Fender3D]

Why don't use relays,
especially since you're wasting DC for just a couple of LEDs... 

[Hides-His-Eyes]

Anything stereo as a general rule tends to be buffered anyway, no point trying for true bypass!

[joegagan]

this topic comes up from time to time.
in my opinion, true hardwire bypass is still very helpful in pedal setup that have more than one or two buffered pedals.

i have done this tone test with many different guitarists with their pedalboards. we plug them into their pedalboard ( usually loaded with 4 to 10 boss effects ), and the amp, leave everything in the off position , then quickly compare the signal with the guitar going through a similar distance of cable, but no pedals. the difference is noticable in each case. i think what we are hearing is a couple dozen buffers, each one imparting its own little signature. in some cases, we put in true bypass boxes to remove the effects from the chain, and the AB result is much more matched.

give me true bypass any day.

if a person prefers a buffer in line, a boss tu2 tuner does the trick pretty nicely. put it after your guitar-interactive fuzzes tho.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

Different methods are appropriate for different situations, but unless you're going to have a chat with the people at Alpha this is one of those situations where buffered is not just preferable but in fact completely necessary.

[joegagan]

doesn't alter my point at all. i was talking about the benefit, in my experience, of removing as many buffers from the signal chain at any given time as possible. in other words, the only buffers in the chain are the ones that are actually in the pedals that are in use at that time.

who is alpha?

[joegagan]

what about this? 8pdt

[SpankyPants]

Thanks for the replies so far, guys!

I'd actually prefer to keep this true bypass if possible. You see, one loop is going to contain all of my effects, and the other loop will contain a phrase looper. The idea is that I can either loop some sound I've created with effects, or I can go to town experimenting with effects in real time over something I've looped live. Some of my effects are going to be octave dividers or fuzzes that will require a clean signal. Some fuzzes actually interact directly with the pickups of a guitar, so a buffer would definitely change the sound and behavior of the pedals.

Would this CD4053 need to be buffered? I'm a bit new to this stuff, so please excuse my ignorance.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

It would need to be, yeah.


If you're doing experimental looping stuff, would a rotary switch be ok? Do it with your hand?

[Fender3D]

Sorry spanky, but if you're talking about true bypass, then you'll need a "mechanical" stuff allowing for a true connection of the required ins and outs.

So, unless you feel somewhat proud kicking levers like this

what about this? 8pdt

You'll need 2 or 3 relays hooked to a "normal" 2PDT or a cheaper 1PST footswitch...

4053, as like 4051, 4052 or 4066 are CMOS switches-in-a-chip, then will require a proper bias setting as well a proper buffering (better if "before" AND "after")

[R.G.]

The previous collection of stuff is correct. Your options are

1 - use whatever you have to  to get enough mechanical switch poles
2 - use relays to get enough switch poles
3 - use electronic switching

I suggest reading the original article on effect order swapping, The Juggler http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/juggler/juggler.htm from geofex, 11/4/99, and the article on relays: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/relays/relays_for_switching_audio_signa.htm Relays for Audio Switching from 12/8/01, and CMOS switching with the CD4053: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/cd4053/cd4053.htm Electronic Switching with the CD4053 from 6/2001. There are other articles there on CMOS switching that illustrates the concept in detail as well.

As a practical matter, true bypass is more of an advantage for advertising than it is for performance in a properly designed pedal. If I had this dilemma, I'd use the CMOS. It's much cheaper and works perfectly well IMHO. At one 3PDT switch per chip for $0.50, it's pretty affordable.

[joegagan]

Spanky, please keep us posted, your ideas sound very interesting. Do you have any YouTube clips or mpthrees?

[SpankyPants]

I'll be reading those articles. From what I've read so far, it seems to be pretty dense material - for me at least.

joegagan, I don't have anything online that really demonstrates my use of effects, but you can check out my main band here. We play fusion, and I play bass in the group. Ironically I have the largest pedalboard of everyone... The song we have up is a four and a half minute excerpt from a 20-minute song that will be released as an EP later this year. The excerpt on the site was cut by our label to be put on their compilation album. We're not fully satisfied by the sound, so we'll be completely re-mixing the song for our EP. In the full version, there's a 6-7 minute segment where I essentially have an extended effects solo. If you want, I could probably put together an unmixed version of that part, and I can email it to you.

One of my other more effects-driven bands is here. It's kinda on hiatus right now... Some of the songs are more studio works or studies in electroacousticism, but you can check out Untitled Part 2 and Gently: The Sunberry Police (and even Of the Earth) for examples of what we play live now. Most recently we've been doing completely improvised shows, sometimes with randomized prompts to designate different sections. A lot of our live stuff is loop-based, so something like this switcher would make a big impact in how we perform. Actually, I just realized that someone put A Year in Tomorrow up. That's an improvised solo work by our guitarist that was recorded in a single take, with no post-processing. He used long, ambient loops to set the tone, and started layering. For sake of fitting the piece on the site, he chopped out some of the longer, more extended parts.

I'll be at NAMM until Monday, so I probably won't have access to a computer until next week, though.  

[petemoore]

  Takin' a look at the big 8pdt switch thinkin' it's the simplest wire up, but not the simplest of electromechanical devices.
  Every time a contact is added the failure rate average goes up by percentages.
  Electronic switching takes a bit of user reading/prototyping, but when one gets going, as I understand it, switching options [such as remote switching and endless variety of possible patches] and reliability go up and cost drops.

[milosch]

I've also considered making something like this but on the order of 8 ins and outs.  Relays most likely and perhaps a PIC to run some buttons.  But I haven't gotten very far with it.

[digi2t]

Hmmm... as I often am, I may be out in left field here, but I wonder if one of these babies would do it for you...



No... not mechanical. My rig just got way too complex for true bypass, but I do run everything in stereo though. I ended up readjusting my sights with an EQ. I use 2 of these, one dedicated to my digital effects, and the other for the analog. I mix and match from there. You can build the audio paths as you wish. Presently, I'm running a GNX3, RP2000, SGX2000, GR-50, SDD3300, AdrenalinnII, Rane MPE14, and 11 different analog effect through these suckers. I can mix and match my audio paths (in stereo) anyway I like, and save them to a preset. I can even split one path right, and another left. It sounds really proggy when you run a bass patch out one side , and a screaming 5150 patch out the other.

Don't understand why they stopped making them. You can snap one up on Ebay on occassion for under 150$. I have 2 in the rack, one spare, and believe you me, if I find another on the cheap I'll snag it.

If you're into MIDI, it's a great piece of kit if you've got a ton of gear and/or run in stereo. Combined with a foot controller i.e. FCB1010, dynamite switcher.

Cheers,
Dino