What makes the TS-808 'shimmer' on the high notes?

[johanp]

I have 4 Tubescreamer clones at home: an Ibanez TS 808HW (the hand wired reissue), an Ibanez TS7 (a cheaper version of the TS9 I think), a fulltone bassdrive (non mosfet version, so with the JCR chip), and a Extar Tabassco (A Polish handbuilt clone with an active 3-band EQ and a mix button, also with the correct chip).

If I compare these three latter pedals with the "real" tubescreamer, one thing that catches attention is that the TS808 has much more pleasant high tones, they are much more sweet and chimmering. The other pedals sound shrill in comparison.
But what I was wondering: what makes the TS808HW perform so well on the high regions? Is it the components (resistors, caps)? Or is it the tone stack? Something else?

I know this question is not directly schematics/DIY related, but if you could shed some light on it, that would be greatly appreciated. Knowing why the TS performs so well might enable us to improve the sound of other overdrive circuits.

BTW, what is the strange blue cap in the TS808HW?

[bean]

Some pedals just sound better than others. I mean two different builds of the same pedal can sound different. The reasons why are usually conjecture. Could be the tolerances in one version's components are better. Or, maybe it uses slightly more voltage. Or anything.

Between the different ones you are comparing it might be as simple as component selection or manufacturer. I think it would be a stretch to attribute to build style, though (PCB vs. terminal strips).

The blue cap is a multilayer ceramic.

And, welcome!

[FlyingZ]

TS sound identical which tells a little something about their tolerances. Never heard a good clone/simile, high end is always wrong.

[johanp]

Thanks for the info. I'm just wondering, if I would make an exact copy of the TS 808 schematic, with the correct values,  but with other brands/types of components, would I end up with the same sweet high notes, or will they sound less pleasing? And if it does, would we be able to trace it back to a type of cap, resistor etc? Do these components have an influence on the sweet highs, apart from the schematic?
I mean, the TS808 is the most copied schematic, there are numereous people who made their own TS clone, there has to be some experience out there concerning what components deliver the best results, not?  Or maybe it's the tone stack, which is probably different in the pedals I have compared? Maybe the TS cuts the ear piercing high frequencies, while the other pedals don't?

(I know, there are a lot of 'if's" above. If there's no pedal guru that shows up here and delivers a clear answer, maybe I should just try to build a TS808 with components I can get easy access to, and compare it with the hand built version).

[FlyingZ]

In my testing of a TS electro vs. film caps or original vs. standard chip had no effect but a ceramic cap in the loop was critical. Perhaps the unknown diodes are the secret sauce. I personally feel some components are specked within 1% based on a lucky maybe famous unit that hit the sweet spot and other great designs will likely be as unique. At $100 new I never considered it worth the time to find out.

If you simply follow a net schematic, an AB test will be disappointing.

[bean]

There's no easy answer to the fundamental question in your post, johanp. What components lead to a pleasing and musical sound in a particular setting is more a matter of consensus, rather than some kind of reductive process. People generally agree that tantalum and film caps within the signal path sound better than electrolytic caps. But,there are many classic designs that use just the opposite, and whose tones are revered. But, are those tones idolized because of the actual sound they produce or because the dude playing through it is a monster player?!

Take a look at R.G.'s article on the "Technology of the Tube Screamer" on the www.geofex.com website. He gets right to the heart of it by comparing the TS-9 and the vintage TS-808.

Anyway, I don't mean to over-intellectualize something that is actually pretty simple. The best choice is determining a preference is your choice, not what anyone tells you is "correct". I think people have a instinctual understanding of "tone" and while it is important to accept the input of others when searching for good tone, your ear is always a better teacher!

[FlyingZ]

R.G. is brilliant by any standards, however, that particular article completely fails to address the question - What makes the factory pedal work where replicas fail?

[Tony Forestiere]

Maybe this?
http://www.bteaudio.com/articles/TSS/TSS.html

Or...could be LadyGarden fluff from Miss Johansson herself. Markeebee will correct me if I am wrong. 

[FiveseveN]

What makes the factory pedal work where replicas fail?

They all obviously work: when engaged, they affect the signal in some way. If you find it pleasing or not is a different issue. Don't mix up electronics with aesthetics.

[jasperoosthoek]

So to the question of what could make a difference I would say four capacitors:

The first two are in the clipping stage. The .047uF cap is responsable for cutting bass during clipping and retaining highs. The 51pF across the diodes should cut supersonic frequencies and provide stability against oscillation. But as this circuit is known for its love-hate relation with opamps it could play a role in making clipping smoother. That means less harsh clipped/overdriven signals that is possibly more apparent with high notes.

Then there's the two .22 caps in the tone circuit. Are they all tantalum? Any difference between them?

I think, opamps and diodes aside, these are the ones to look at. Maybe build or breadboard one so you have the possiblity to swap components and do an A/B comparison.

[FlyingZ]

What makes the factory pedal work where replicas fail?

They all obviously work: when engaged, they affect the signal in some way. If you find it pleasing or not is a different issue. Don't mix up electronics with aesthetics.

You mean semantics.
What makes the factory pedals sound consistently pleasing where replicas sound bad?

Happy?

I'll check back in a month to see if his question gets answered.

[Paul Marossy]

If I compare these three latter pedals with the "real" tubescreamer, one thing that catches attention is that the TS808 has much more pleasant high tones, they are much more sweet and chimmering. The other pedals sound shrill in comparison.
But what I was wondering: what makes the TS808HW perform so well on the high regions? Is it the components (resistors, caps)? Or is it the tone stack? Something else?

Some people would say because it's hand wired.  

One thing I thought of: if you are talking about an actual Ibanez made TS808 and not a clone of one, there is the also the buffer circuits that the Ibanez pedal will have that clones will probably have dispensed with and made true bypass instead. It seems to me that the absence of the buffers would be a contributing factor as they probably help take the harshness off the highs and round them out a little bit.

So to the question of what could make a difference I would say four capacitors:

The first two are in the clipping stage. The .047uF cap is responsable for cutting bass during clipping and retaining highs. The 51pF across the diodes should cut supersonic frequencies and provide stability against oscillation. But as this circuit is known for its love-hate relation with opamps it could play a role in making clipping smoother. That means less harsh clipped/overdriven signals that is possibly more apparent with high notes.

Then there's the two .22 caps in the tone circuit. Are they all tantalum? Any difference between them?

I think, opamps and diodes aside, these are the ones to look at. Maybe build or breadboard one so you have the possiblity to swap components and do an A/B comparison.

I agree about the caps. The tone control caps are probably the biggest factor, I would think. I have seen on an oscilloscope that a BJT opamp (like a JRC4558) does clip differently than an FET type does (like a TL072) - the waveforms look harsher on the BJT type, but to my ears it doesn't translate to anything noticeable. If anything, it's so subtle that I can't really perceive it. Caps I think are a much different animal by nature, you have type of cap, tolerances, etc. which are bigger game changers IMO. But it does all work together as a team, so it's hard to just isolate things to a single component being responsible for the sound as they all interact which eachother.

[slacker]

The Bass Drive and the Polish thing aren't really clones of the the TS so it's not surprising they sound different. The Bass Drive is basically the same circuit but the schematic I've seen has different component values that affect the amount of gain and the tone control. The active EQ on the other pedal probably explains why that sounds different.

[Paul Marossy]

The Bass Drive and the Polish thing aren't really clones of the the TS so it's not surprising they sound different. The Bass Drive is basically the same circuit but the schematic I've seen has different component values that affect the amount of gain and the tone control. The active EQ on the other pedal probably explains why that sounds different.

Good points. My GGG TS808 clone which I built in 2003 has the input & output buffers in it, and I use it quite a lot because it just sounds good.

[bean]

Shoot, my TS-10 still sounds amazing...even after almost two decades!

[Dragonfly]

What makes the factory pedals sound consistently pleasing where replicas sound bad?

Unfortunately that is also a matter of opinion. YOU think the factory 808's sound great and the replicas sound bad. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE feels the same way. Lot's of people obviously prefer the sound of clones (or lightly tweaked clones)... otherwise there wouldn't be such a huge market for boutique clones. (BTW - I have no doubt that you prefer the sounds of the 808's you've played, and the stock build/circuit works for you)

And therein lies the real problem... what really sounds "better", and to whom ?  Once you have determined that "Unit A" sounds better to YOU than "Unit B", then the only way you can possibly determine is by comparing the circuits, measuring materials and tolerances in parts, etc...all of which you can find argued on audiophile forums daily. Of course than you can also start to factor in things like "mojo and pre-determined bias".

For the OP - all of your TS circuits are different. You prefer the sound of your 808. It is entirely possible that you would prefer the sound of MANY 808 "clones" to the sound of your TS7, Bassdrive, and Extar. The TS7, Bassdrive, and Extar all have slightly different circuits than a 808.

In a true double blind test I highly doubt that many (if anyone) could consistently choose the Ibanez 808 among a crowd of TRUE 808 clones. Sure, the person may hear some slight discernable differences between various 808's/clones, however, choosing which one was the Ibanez consistently....won't happen.



YMMV - IMO - IME - ETC

[FiveseveN]

You mean semantics.
What makes the factory pedals sound consistently pleasing where replicas sound bad?

I know what I mean. As Dragonfly put it, you're stuck in your own head. We all are. We can't possibly know what someone else likes, unless he/she describes the experience, and then it becomes a language/semiotics problem, since we have to guess what those words mean in terms of our own experience.

So if you ask a builder/technician/etc. to "make a TS sound better" he'd be stuck.
If you tell him "move the HP cutoff frequency down to 500Hz" then he can help.

So aesthetic goals are impossible to satisfy by engineering. You have to "translate" them into objective goals.
We can go deeper into theory of mind and epistemology if you like but I hope it's clear enough now.

[Paul Marossy]

You mean semantics.
What makes the factory pedals sound consistently pleasing where replicas sound bad?

I know what I mean. As Dragonfly put it, you're stuck in your own head. We all are. We can't possibly know what someone else likes, unless he/she describes the experience, and then it becomes a language/semiotics problem, since we have to guess what those words mean in terms of our own experience.

So if you ask a builder/technician/etc. to "make a TS sound better" he'd be stuck.
If you tell him "move the HP cutoff frequency down to 500Hz" then he can help.

Yeah, that's a good way to put it!

[FlyingZ]

You both misunderstood me intentionally maybe IDK. Not my thread so I'm gone really this time   

[ericohman]

Are the components of the early TS808 pedals known?

For example the caps and diodes, is there some mojo diodes or can I buy them off mouser, as well as the caps on the original vintage ts808's
I've heard there's a lot of talk about the opamps and this video might be fun to watch if you haven't seen it:
"Visual Sound: Myth Buster #2: Op Amps"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTv2jAree8

I read this page but it doesn't really tell what kind of diodes, caps he used:
http://www.legendarytones.com/TS808ri2vint.html

What diodes was used in the early units? If anything I think I'll try swapping diodes in my reissue TS808 and see what happens.