putting together a 'jerry garcia' rig, for my dead cover band.

[Quackzed]

And i figured i'd ask for some advice on mods/ideas to get closer to the 'jerry' type tone...

so i play through a twin reverb ii, with 2 celestion g12s 50's...  i've been looking for some peavey scorpions as they are supposed to be similar to the jbl e120's jerry used- very clean, articulate/sensitive spkrs...

looking at his guitargeek rig ...
1    i have a dr.q envelope($ubbed for the mutron) - i'm having some trouble with it not wanting to quack high up on the high e string...
2    an arion moc-1(oc2 clone) subbed for the boss oc2...dont really use it much, but its there, i guess if we attempt terrapin *gasp*
3    an mxr dist + (newer model) -i was gonna just build one,honest, but i spotted it for 25$ at a GuitCent, so i grabbed it -?!? its a  high     gain 80's distortion tho, i guess at very low gain its sort of 'overdrive' but its weird that jerry used one of these...seems more eddie than jerry...its kinda low volume at low gain, but i'd like to try to retain the ge diodes...not sure what to do there?
4    a behringer 'phaser'- subbed for the phase 90.-its a clone of something, its a behringer after all... is it a phase 90 clone?
5    and i dont have an analog delay right now...  i had a dod delay fx90? that i loved ,but it was stolen. and i basically just killed my little fab echo by re-re-modding it...
           so thats my jerry rig... any advise on the issues mentioned, modding or builds to get closer to his tone would be geat.

[Mark Hammer]

The Dr. Q can be easily modded to be more responsive, have a more "vocal" sound, etc.  Quite frankly, I always thought he used an MXR Envelope Filter, since I had one at the time and it sounded exactly the same.  I would recommend changing the 100R resistor, in the rectifier portion just after the diode, with 47R.  That will get you a little more oomph and sensitivity as well as a slightly faster attack time, which I associate with Jerry.

I bought one of those blue Behringer P90 clones, and they are about 4 pimples different from an actual P90.  probably more differences between any two P90s than between the Behringer and the MXR.

I can't remember any really distorted Garcia sounds, but that may just be me.  If you don't plan on producing any, consider replacing the GE diodes in the Distortion+ with SI (1N914, 1n4148).  That will get you more volume at lower gain settings.  Note that the Dist+ cuts bass the more you turn up the gain, so being able to achieve sufficient volume at lower gain settings also means a fuller sound.

[wavley]

You gonna get yourself one of those McIntosh 2300 amps?   Because everybody needs a twin AND 600 watts of Uber clean amp!

Yeah, I can't really think of any very distorted Jerry sounds either, I was surprised when I refreshed myself on his rig to see things like the HM-2, of course I'm a Pigpen kinda guy, and they really loose me at Shakedown Street, not that Shakedown Street and the stuff that comes after is bad, I'd just rather listen to the older stuff.  So pedals like the HM-2 are on things I rarely listen to anyway.

[Quackzed]

i'll try that 47r on the doctor, and you may be right about the mxr env, seems like the more you dig into the deads web of info, the deeper the story gets. i know he used a mutron later in their career, but there are early shows where by all accounts he just used a wah into a twin.

I dont have a 600 watt mac 2300.. however i DO have a peavey special 150 thats solid state-with a poweramp input, and has plenty of cleen headroom...and the twin ii has a preamp out.i COULD try that, but thats a whole other amp... maybe worth a try?  

mark, i looked up the behringer ph9, i have the vp-1 'vintage phaser' drat. seems its a small stone copy, though it doesnt sound very different..

regarding the dist + ,ill take your advise and try some si diodes. i dont need alot of extra volume, but i cant see how i can get enough volume out of it at low gain with the ge's. though i was toying with the idea of a small pot in series with the ge's ala 'warp control',
i've read that he had his effects in a parallel path and blended them in with a volume pedal,and thought a warp control might be similar- letting some clean through,  but again its hard to know fact from myth. still i wonder about trying it, maybee i'll try and do both.   more switches!
thanks. just heard we might have a gig up at cannon mountain in nh.i guess ill spend a little time on the moun-tain.  

yeah, the hm-2 has no mellow sounds, cant imagine where or when he used that, i have one and ive tried to put it to use, but its just too mean for a relatively clean rig...

[pazuzu]

if you're looking to buy an analog delay you might want to consider an artec analog delay. i think i payed 50$ for mine, you can only find them on ebay from what i can tell. but they are not moddable. all pcm.

[petemoore]

so i play through a twin reverb ii, with 2 celestion g12s 50's...  i've been looking for some peavey scorpions as they are supposed to be similar to the jbl e120's jerry used- very clean, articulate/sensitive spkrs...
 Eye the speaker and cabinet and calculate that to the size of the room.
 My favorite cabs have been large enclosure 2/12'' or 1x12''. For my pre-gig hand, that is enough weight for a load, especially with heavier speakers.
 looking at his guitargeek rig ...
1    i have a dr.q envelope($ubbed for the mutron) - i'm having some trouble with it not wanting to quack high up on the high e string...  Take a look at RG's Neutron Filter, it quacks like a duck in the rain, Hp, Lp, Bp filters, straighforeward/workable design.
2    an arion moc-1(oc2 clone) subbed for the boss oc2...dont really use it much, but its there, i guess if we attempt terrapin *gasp*
3    an mxr dist + (newer model) -i was gonna just build one,honest, but i spotted it for 25$ at a GuitCent, so i grabbed it -?!? its a  high     gain 80's distortion tho, i guess at very low gain its sort of 'overdrive' but its weird that jerry used one of these...seems more eddie than jerry...its kinda low volume at low gain, but i'd like to try to retain the ge diodes...not sure what to do there?
Not sure how that works, I don't recall a lot of clipped-distorted sound from Jerry rig, but then with the phase and filter the disto can be mellowed some..
4    a behringer 'phaser'- subbed for the phase 90.-its a clone of something, its a behringer after all... is it a phase 90 clone?
5    and i dont have an analog delay right now...   i had a dod delay fx90? that i loved ,but it was stolen. and i basically just killed my little fab echo by re-re-modding it...
if t sounds like a work-alike it is probably very much so just that. Plastic doesn't alter the circuit, and the phasse circuti is easily repliacable

[Quackzed]

actually pete, was it you who posted somthing about trying a warp control on a dist + diodes? if so, i wonder if you think it would help to 'overdriveize' or clean up the dist +, i just keep coming back to the idea of a clean blend/lowgain dist +. listening jerry seems to have great volume dynamics as well as sustain...

[oliphaunt]

To Quackzed, it's just my opinion, but but the Twin II is likely to let you down.  Those amps are really a different thing, and don't sound at all like a black or silver face Twin.  One thing no one seems to mention about Jerry's tone is the compression, very noticable on his clean tone.  It may just be natural amp compression from playing at a very loud volume.  There has never been any mention of him using a compressor pedal that I know of.  It may be post amp processing.  I have stood close enough to the stage to hear his rig many times, but was usually having too good a time to think about such details!  A lot of the Jerry clones I have seen are using humbuckers, and they get that naturally compressed clean humbucking tone, which gets you close, but you miss the sparkle and clarity of single coils.  I use a Strat (in the middle position, this is key!) for a basic Jerry tone, but always feel like I am missing that perfectly compressed yet smooth and natural sound.

Also, you don't mention your guitar and pickups.  In the early days Jerry used humbuckers, then switched to straight single coils.  In the late 870s maybe he started using humbuckers again, this time with coil taps, usually played in single mode.   I suspect that is a big part of the sound of the later period.  I have always used straight single coils on a lightweight Strat, and never felt like I quite get there.  The tapped humbuckers have a different sound, which I never really likied when I tried them, but maybe that is part of the tone, combined with the incredibly solid, heavy neck through body guitars he used.

On Europe '72 Jerry used a good bit of wah into a clean Twin, but once he started using the Mutron things got really interesting!  I have an original Mutron III and the sound is unmistakable, and in my experience unreproducable.  I have not built or heard a copy such as the Neutron, but other filter circuits just don't get there. I have an original Q-Tron, from pretty much the day it was first released in the early 90s.  I bought it hoping it would take the place of my Mutron so I could retire it from road use, but it is really hard (sometimes impossible) to dial in.  It drifts away from the sweet spot, and sometimes just won't go there.  On a good day it can do just fine though.  I don't know anything about the newer ones.

Jerry used a lot of overdriven tone over the years.  In the early days in was clearly just humbuckers into a clean Twin played really LOUD!  By '72 he was using single coils regularly, and the tone cleaned up a bit.  Jerry used a lot of pedal produced overdiven tones for leads by the late 70's.  The song Rhapsody in Red from the Cats Down Under the Stars album stands out as having an almost fuzz tone lead.    The MXR D+ tone he used during this period was harsh by comparison to his later overdriven sounds.  He reportedly used a HM-1 later on, though I have never been able to get anything vaguely resembling that sound from an HM-1.

Compare '81 Warf Rat (starting at 8:45):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20dic8S3cWI

'87 Warf Rat  (starting at 6:00):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPKNw_LOY9U&feature=related

with '89 Warf Rat (starting at 6:25):

or with '93  Deal(starting at 4:00):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9azzo7HYX0

Of course, none of that actually matters, Jerry's tone was all in his hands.  He sounded pretty much the same on an acoustic guitar.  Pull out For The Faithful and copy those acoustic tones and playing techniques, and if you can do that then your gear troubles will quickly sort themselves out!

[Quackzed]

i have been giging with my sg, humbucker guitar (no coil split) - the sg's pu's are just 2 conductor so a coil split isn't really an option.
and i agree with you about the single coil brighter tone, my strat gets some very nice sparkle and chime, it also has a treble bleed resistor/cap that lets me reduce volume withut losing highs , i might use it as its got a brighter tone, and we all know jerry liked his treble.
i had a hb les paul that i coil tapped (think jimmy page, not jerry garcia)  that had some briter tones, like a single coil yet not.
and yeah, seems a bit more clear like his tone
the sg adds a bit of sustain and 'woodyness'. and is in construction, closer to jerrys type guitars, ...
I'd wouldn't say the twin ii is very different, from a blackface or silverface twin,it is different,  but i'm satisfied with it just because its got plenty of clean headroom and the same eq reverb etc...
i'm actually pretty happy with the dr. q. its not a mutron, but its pretty responsive and smooth, and envelope followers are so weird in the first place that i think the effect itself makes it hard to notice less obvious tonal differences. like it might be easy to notice a mid scoop on a distortion, but on an envelope follower it may not be as obvious.
i still have to try that 47ohm resistor in there to try it...
ill youtube the mutron and check it out...
i think i heard a bit of dist+ ,and it looked like he turned around and adjusted the gain on it.. it is a bit fuzzy, i'm in the process of modding the one i have to clean it up a bit... i have a little 8 pin dipp i think im going to epoxy to the top of the box as a 'diode lab' and plug in different diodes etc...see what gets me there...

[WorkBench]

Put 2 silicon diodes in a row on each side in your Dist. +.  You will get a better clean grit, like Jerry had when the volume is boosted and the distortion is turned all the way down.   I do it, sounds great!  Germanium diodes just don't sound good to me, or like Jerry.  He may have had them in his +, but with the amount of gain he was able to play with, they sound different!  He hardly used a HM2, or 1!  After the + it was all Boss pedals for distortion.  For heavier Jerry distortion tones, I am currently using an analogman silver option TS9.  It's great, a little off from his tone, but plays real nice and is real close, ala Sampson and Delilah, I need a miracle.  Check out www.Waldelectronics.com.  You will learn alot!  Also, RUKIND forum.  They all discuss the Deads equipment.  I just built the EF440 from General Guitar Gadgets, and I can get real close to Jerry's envelope filter mods.  I modded it a bunch, because I have 3 humbuckers and a preamp in the guitar, along with the onboard effects loop ala Jerry.  Your amp may get you close, just fiddle around, try treble all the way up, mids at 4-5 and bass 0-2.  Reverb at 4-5.  Now these are my settings on a blackface Twin, modded as close as possible to Jerry's specs, but I think you can get alright tones out of your amp.  Better speakers???  Look for JBL K120's on Ebay or Craigslist.  I use them, Jerry used them during, in my opinion his best tone years, 74-79!  I mostly listen to shows from '77 and copy that tone, it's amazing.  So, yeah, Phase he rarely used, Candyman is the only song I recall it on.  The Boss OC2 for octave sounds great, and he used it from about 81-82 on.  Delay, a Boss DD3 is nice, I use the AD3802 pedal, it's analog, and it on the GGG site.  Then again, what you have may work?

[WorkBench]

......or, in that Distortion + ya' put 2 Red LEDS instead of diodes.  They clip at the same amount as 2 silcon in a row (4 total), and they break up at the same time as germanium.  Best of both worlds maybe?  I am currently running this way in one of 2 of my Dist. +'s.

[Quackzed]

because I have 3 humbuckers and a preamp in the guitar, along with the onboard effects loop ala Jerry.

cool,i always wanted to try the onboard effects loop.  
      i'll try out the led clipping, the dist + increasingly rolls off lows as the gain is increased, so i suspect it will be cleaner as well as brighter.i'm gonna epoxy an 8 pin socket right over the mxr logo   wired to the 2 points the orig de diodes ran between, the left 2 spots for 1 pair of diods, the rght 2, for another pair of diodes, both pairs in series...so with a jumper i can have 2 ge,si,leds or any combo...as well as 1 pair and a jumper,also i can put a resistor in instead of a diode pair and have a clipping/blend thing happening.
i'm a tweaker, i know i'm gonna want to try and get a little more 'this' or 'that' out of it so i figure i'll put a mini-breadboard on it!
i figure, if i find a combo that i really like, i can epoxy all the components to a little substrate and make a 'jerry chip' to plug into the socket.
i'm definately keeping my eyes open for a pair of jbl's e120s, k120s, i've read that the e's are the most sensitive speakers ever made.
103db 1w/1m , though i'll admit i'm a bit afraid.  
i mean a twin is loud, like extremely clean and LOUD. putting extremely sensitve speakers in it makes it even LOUDER.  yikes.
apparently peavey scorpions are similarly designed and have similar specs, not sure about a/b comparisons tonewise, but ill grab em up if i find em cheap as well..      

[Quackzed]

ive read that jerry turned the bass all the way off, and i believe he did, at least if i run it any higher than 2 its too much.
treble 7ish (6ish with strat single coils) mid 4-5 bass 1-2 presence 5 for hb 3ish for s.c.
my blues driver actually does a pretty good 'jerry od' as it stays pretty transparent, just puts a bit of edge on single note things and doesnt
soften the attack when heavily plucking low notes...

[petemoore]

  Start the pyramid at the bottom:
  Decide how big it is based on what size room.
  One way to increase volume while maintaining any tone is 2x-ing the amplifier and speaker. While amplifier/speaker combinations do have volume control, changing this setting outside certain limits beging changing the tone.
  It is suggested that the loudspeaker/amplifier relationship may have a 'sweet spot' related to settings/ohmage etc. where the speaker excursions and amplifier 'grunts' become symbiotic sounding, and any compensations in an attempt to retain this relationship while altering volume output cause disturbances which de-synchronize the delicate kinetic balances.
  The Speaker:
  To simplify a rather long story: JBL in an 'audiophile enclosure' [large, sealed box, simply yet nicely designed and put together]. Any 'trimming' or 'opening up' should be done with great care of design. The ability of the enclosure to not 'break over' at a certain LF [where the wavelength exceeds some cabinet dimension such as the depth of a Twin, or other opening which a peak or cancellation].
  Yepp...these guys were really motivated ! ! And did very well collecting supplies.
  The stage and PA guitar sounds seemed to have no sweat whatsoever when producing notes of all character and frequency. The low-end of the guitar transitioning to the high notes of the guitar with very little 'changeover' in tone...or the large-box-tone [components extra].
  Also, take a look at Phil Lesh's rig design.

[Philippe]

In addition to the other suggestions, maybe commission Doug Irwin to build you a guitar?

[Mark Hammer]

In addition to the other suggestions, maybe commission Doug Irwin to build you a guitar?

Though I'd recommend against chopping off part of your finger.

[Quackzed]

Though I'd recommend against chopping off part of your finger.

I really wish you had put that in your initial post...
i swapped the 100ohm resistor in the rectifier of the doctor Q for a 47ohm, it does indeed help the higher notes 'open up'.
thanks for the tip.
when i opened it up i realized there's a trimmer in there  i had forgotten about... but after tunin it this way and that i wound up at about the same spot i had it at in the first place... sounds good to me.
the dist + i tried a buch of different things...
2ge=standard sound, nice fuzzy high gain, low gain kinda soft and fuzzy as well, just less so...
1ge/1si= a bit less fuzzy at low gain a little more 'open' but not very different. than above...
2si= a little tighter distortion, less soft fuzzyness, id say compared to 2 si it sounds a bit more edgy and less squishy, more dynamics clean to od. a bit more clean oomph.
2 si in series/2 si in series= nice. opened it up alot(more clean headroom before distortion) with a nice sweet spot where i can pick lightly i get clean/od and power chords are nice and crunchy... plenty of volume on tap for boosting...
--- i noticed that with no clipping diodes, theres still enough gain to get the opamp clipping pretty good, a little fizzy decay sounding but really not terrible...

[Quackzed]

then i tried  a 10k resistor between the 2si in series/2 si in series and ground. wow. even more open sounding, i think its a keeper for now.
its similar to the 2si/2si to ground sound, but with more dynamic range. without the 10k btw the diodes and ground, i could pick lightly and get clean/od harder and get a god bit of crunch, now i when i dig in, it sounds a bit more compressed but not as crunchy, seems like it 'breathes a bit when pushed, rather than hitting the wall and getting more crunchy with no vol difference. very amp like.
i'm gonna glue this clipping arrangement onto an 8 pin socket, so i can just plug it into the socket installed on top of the box.
kind of a diy clipping 'chip'.
this one is the jerry chip(so far ), down the road i'll have to make a randy, as well as a yngwie chip...
--     right now my speaker cab is an old gutted philco radio. solid wood 2X12 internal dimentions 26X20X8. open back, though i do have a back attachment to make it a closed back. it has a 'shelf' between the top speaker and bottom for stiffness... should i go closed back?
basically, closed it will be like 2 1x12 cabs each @ 13x20x8...
hmm...food for thought...
if i find some jbls i'll have to do some trial and error with the cab setup...
-         the stage mics were another 'strange' design. i believe they used 2 mics one 2-3" above the other, out of phase with each other.
like a humbucker. so all the stage noise and ambient sound would hit both mics and cancell out. but if you were closer to one than the other, like when singing into the top one, there would be more volume difference btw the 2 and less cancellation...

[WorkBench]

Jerry's cabs were all open back.  I use a 2x12 I made out of Birch, open back and it sounds real nice.  Cool idea on the 10k with the pair of 2 si diodes in series.  I will have to try that!  Try red LEDS if ya' get a chance also.

[Quackzed]

ok, heres a little update for anyone interested. i'm getting close to being satisfied with my 'dead rig'.
one thing that has made a big improvement is a buffer. i didn't want to put anything in the guitar, a al jerrys internal buffer(an ic buffer), so i figured i'd make one to attach to my guitar strap.
dragonfly's 'sparkle boost' was something i had built and liked, so i put one in a small box/ w a battery and a low cut switch( for a crude single coil sim) as my humbuckers arent coil cutable (2 conductor).
anyway, i biased it on the low end (15k bias resistor)and used a 5k r instead of the gain pot(so its set at minimum gain), 
its biased as distortion free as i could get it to be and still have a bit of boost. its clean as hell for my 8kish hb's
lowered the outut cap till it just started to cut bass a bit (.018)  then added another .018 in series with a switch to short it out.
so basically its a little control box attached to my strap right before the strap button, with a volume pot(unity at 50% rotation), a little push on push off tactile switch, to switch btwn .018 out cap(hb) or .009 out cap(sc), and a dpdt switch for true bypass on/off
- the hb setting starts cutting bass at around 175hz (.018uf with 50k vol pot) for a little bit of bass cut...
- the sc setting starts cutting bass at @ 350hz (.009 w 50k vol pot) for a decent amount of bass cut, that also reduces volume just a bit like a real single coil would... works pretty good. but i'll be playing a show tonight at full volume so i'll report back and have a better idea of how it works in the field tomorrow. (it might be too bright, but so far i think it works pretty well. also i can turn the box's volume down without losing highs and without having to alter my guitars wiring with a'bleed cap/resistor so it has a few fringe benifits as well...