What is "woody"?

[Mark Hammer]

No.  Not Watson's answer to the jeopardy question/clue:  A converted hearse popular with surfers in the 1960s.

The tone.

I was responding to a thread on another forum yesterday, asking about preferred "tonal periods" of the Clapton discography, and I found myself indicating a preference for his material where he gets a "woody" tone, such as his ES335 sound on "Tore Down".  Then last night, while listening to the radio, they played a song from the current Lucinda Williams CD that had Elvis Costello providing guitar support, and the tone was to die for.  The only word I could use to describe it was "woody".

So that got me thinking about just what we mean by "woody" and what it consists of.  I'm not talking about what the benchmark woody tone is - for certainly we would vary in our estimation.   Nor am I talking about what amps, speakers, pickups, pedals, mic techniques, or settings produce it (though that will certainly enter into it eventually).

What I'm curous about is what the tonal properties are that lead to that mental classification.  If we could say what it is that leads to the subjective impression of "woodiness", then that would guide the way in terms of electronic design.  But as always, the first thing you have to do is articulately describe "woodiness" and what the sensory components are that make it up. 

I have a feeling it is a bit like Worcestershire sauce, in that there are a number of things that combine to produce it, that each contribute ever so fleetingly to the overall quality.  Certainly, there is an overdrive component to it.  And, insomuch as rotating speakers often have a woody quality, I imagine there is some element of shifting harmonic content too.  I know there is some bass to it, but its a throaty bass, not a deep one.

Here is where I turn to you.  Introspect away, folks!

[ayayay!]

From what you describe (especially the Clapton 335 example) I think of "woody" as a howling, violin-like tone.  Okay maybe more overdriven Viola.  I imagine the grains of the guitar rattling and breathing, like a viola through a PA driven into distortion.  When one can evoke the howl, that's woody to me.  

Of course everyone thinks of Eric Johnson, but there's plenty of others too.  Not too long ago I saw a performance of Deep Purple w/ the London Philharmonic (I think) and Blackmore was playing a 335, with quite the woody tone.  Metheny quite often gets a great woody tone, not just the typical "jazz" tone, especially when live.  

It *can* be produced with a pedal and the right guitar.  I think my Blues Driver mod does that sound quite well, even with my Tele.  On a Strat, meh.  Definitely on my Les Paul.  

Man I've been wanting a 335 so bad!  Now you've got me jonesing for one again, Mark.  Ha!  

(It should also be noted, this is not an acoustic one-size-fits-all moniker either.  I've heard plenty an expensive acoustics (C. Fox, Collins) that always sound like a cardboard box, plugged in or not.)

[Joe Hart]

Rich and complex midrange.
-Joe Hart

[DougH]

From the "tore down" clip I found on Youtube I would say it's due to a lot of mids. Listened to a pedal demo yesterday where they pushed the mids and dialed back treble/bass and they described it as "woody".

I never really knew what was meant by it before. But it's really just a wordsmithing contest, and probably depends on who is using the term and what they mean by it.

[jacobyjd]

In addition to what's already been mentioned here, I'd say a component of a sound I'd call 'woody' would have to include some amount of speaker distortion. When I hear the sound I think you've been describing, I imagine that the cabinet is almost bursting at its proverbial seams.

[Mark Hammer]

I'm thinking it's more than just EQ.  It's the way that the frequency content changes over time.  Think of it like dynamic change in formants.  But yeah, it certainly IS all about the lower midrange.  It just isn't about turned the midrange control up.  It's a whole lot more than that.

A lot of classic Marshall tones can be "woody".  Ritchie Blackmore often has a woody tone.  Here's the Lucinda Williams cut I was talking about:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P6z7b5aIi4

[markeebee]

Clapton makes me cry tears of bitter tedium-stoked blood so I can't listen to any examples, but I think it's also got something to do with a softer attack.

Marimba = woody.  Xylophone = not.



And I can't tell you how proud I am to have sidestepped any obvious innuendo.

[Joe Hart]

It just isn't about turned the midrange control up.

I feel the frequencies need to be there from the start. I don't like "adding" frequencies that don't seem to be there. I prefer to "subtract" frequencies I don't want. I like an even-toned guitar that's maybe a little on the bright side into a darker sounding amp to tame some of the highs. I don't think it's about just turning the midrange control up, either. I think it's about having those frequencies on tap and then accentuating them.

And, like jacobyjd said, speaker distortion helps bring those frequencies out.
-Joe Hart

[DougH]

I'm thinking it's more than just EQ.  It's the way that the frequency content changes over time.  Think of it like dynamic change in formants.  But yeah, it certainly IS all about the lower midrange.  It just isn't about turned the midrange control up.  It's a whole lot more than that.

A lot of classic Marshall tones can be "woody".  Ritchie Blackmore often has a woody tone.  Here's the Lucinda Williams cut I was talking about:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P6z7b5aIi4

I agree with Josh that it has a lot to do with the speakers. Blackmore had a very elusive quality to his sound in the latter part of his DP days. That Marshall major was actually pretty clean (and bright) and the way his booster tickled it and the speaker sound was a big contributor to that "woody" quality IMO.

After listening to the elvis costello clip I think I know what you mean but it's hard to put my finger on exactly what it is. It sounds like upper mids too but "tore down" (which sounds like "beano" to me) sounds like lower mids- so I agree it's not just an EQ thing. I really think it has to do with the way those speakers are responding and breaking up.

[johanp]

I'm not sure how it is for guitars, but I know from experience that a Fender Precision bass with 'vintage reissue' pickups have a very woody characteristic that's missing in the modern pickups (Alinco V) like that of the American Standard precisions. I know this because I have swapped these pickups in a precision.  The difference is huge.


This is one with the vintage pickups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPzYQxaUns4

This is one with the modern american standard pickups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THITANX322E


I know it's a long shot, but maybe the pickups (and the magnet material) also contribute. Just something to consider.

[BubbaFet]

To me, 'woody' means that natural hollow reverb-like tone,
with rolled off highs, that a humbucker equipped semi-hollow
guitar makes, pumped through some nice AlNiCo speaker(s).

[Mark Hammer]

I agree with Josh that it has a lot to do with the speakers. Blackmore had a very elusive quality to his sound in the latter part of his DP days. That Marshall major was actually pretty clean (and bright) and the way his booster tickled it and the speaker sound was a big contributor to that "woody" quality IMO.

After listening to the elvis costello clip I think I know what you mean but it's hard to put my finger on exactly what it is. It sounds like upper mids too but "tore down" (which sounds like "beano" to me) sounds like lower mids- so I agree it's not just an EQ thing. I really think it has to do with the way those speakers are responding and breaking up.

Right, and the speakers are physical objects, where inertia and dissipating resonances play a role.  Like I say, it isn't just an EQ thing, it's dynamic.  same way someone with a thck brogue doesn't sound like that for the whole word or sentence, just for certain parts of it.

What I'm looking for at the end, is a kind of model that says: first THIS happens, then you get a bit of that and this other thng in such and such a proportion, and then THAT happens.  It's obviously not as robust and striking a transition as you get with a sitar, but it IS a particular sonic transition.

[DougH]

I'm not sure how it is for guitars, but I know from experience that a Fender Precision bass with 'vintage reissue' pickups have a very woody characteristic that's missing in the modern pickups (Alinco V) like that of the American Standard precisions. I know this because I have swapped these pickups in a precision.  The difference is huge.


This is one with the vintage pickups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPzYQxaUns4

This is one with the modern american standard pickups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THITANX322E


I know it's a long shot, but maybe the pickups (and the magnet material) also contribute. Just something to consider.

Two things:

That second clip is a 5-string and in my experience 5 string basses sound very different than 4 strings.

I tend to believe Bill Lawrence when he downplays the differences of sound due to pickup materials: http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pickupology/magnets.htm

Sorry, didn't mean to be a wet blanket... 

[CynicalMan]

[Johan]

I think a strong fundamental and first (even)overtone that is not overwhelmed by succeding overtones is essential to what most people would consider "woody"
I also think that disproportions between the fundamental/first overtone and the following overtones in solid state amps is why they quickly become tiresome/anoying at stage volumes, but that's another topic..
....back to winebottle...
J

[Heemis]

Just referencing the aforementioned Elvis Costello sound on the Lucinda Williams track, it sounds to me very much like maybe picking style plays a role?  I feel like I am able to achieve that tone mostly playing the bridge pickup on my tele through a light OD, and sort of "splitting the difference" between a fully plucked note and a pinch harmonic.  Perhaps that speaks a bit to the observation Johan made, a blending of the fundamental and also an overtone at roughly the same level...

just my 2 "cents"

[Mark Hammer]

Again (and this is not a criticism of any sort), there is "how do I get it?", and there is "what IS it?".  I'm trying to understand the 2nd, although most assuredly, one of the routes to getting there will be by considering how different people get it, and exploring what lies in common between the results of those different approaches.

[Heemis]

Right, I was merely trying to corroborate what Johan had mentioned because it seems to have a similar basis in theory.  Maybe if we get more opinions on how the sound is achieved, we can find a common bond.

If only Elvis had thought to pluck a single note on his guitar and make it available to us so we could analyze it!

[BubbaFet]

Another answer is that Woody is a cartoon woodpecker...
and you can get him at Netflix.

p.s.  I realize that I'm not really helping here... just going for the cheap laughs.

[wavley]

Didn't we tackle that in this thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=79112.0

These terms are pretty hard to quantify, yet people know what you're talking about when it's said.

Woody and reedy also turn up on the Weber site in speaker descriptions and it turns out to be a pretty apt description of the speakers.https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/asig12.htm