How much $ or how many is "Commercial Use"

[tiges_ tendres]

It's a shame really, but to sum it up if you didn't read it:

You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and then it was six of one, and half a dozen of another...

[RedHouse]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, in the U.S., according to the copyright office, you can't get a copyright on a PCB, only a patent.

I tried.  They rejected it as a "useful article" subject to patent law.

In the U.S., and absent a patent, the question of whether or not to use someone else's PCB layout is a moral one only.

If you don't want others using your layouts, keep them to yourself or patent them.

Fun fact: you also can't copyright a recipe or a font.

You can stop saying it anytime dude, you misunderstand what is copyrighted and what is trademarked in this case.

My Copyright is on my artwork, which is the PDF he used, which he sent to the fab house to make the run of PCB's w/o permission and is offering up for sale. The "image" of that artwork appear on the face of his PCB, also my name and trademark appear on those boards which is an infringement worldwide, get it?

If you want to test that, take a PCB made by SONY let's say, which clearly has the SONY trademark name imprinted on it, take it on down to a PCB fab house and ask them to reproduce it, see what they tell you. You will not walk out with a work order in your pocket. Same again go down to a Lithographic shop and ask them to photocopy your Dictionary, explain that you own it and it's your legal copy, they'll tell you to get lost because they know both they and you can get dragged into court over it in a big way.

There's a lot of churn on these forums about copyright and trademark but I have not only looked into it, but got the real deal advise from a real patent and trademark attorney.
(which cost a few $ BTW)

In fact it was then I was told I actually had to actively engage in preventing trademark abuse when I became aware of it, otherwise one can argue consent is given by doing nothing with the awareness of the usage.

Btw, Fonts are vector art graphics and can be remedied under copyright law (for the vector art) and trademark law (for the image they create if it's a logo or image) just as any other art and logo is protected, that is how they manage to license fonts and keep people from using them w/o paying.
(although word-up, once in Illustrator if you select "create outlines" you are then not using the fonts vector graphic but only an image of it and that whole argument dissolves quicky)

Recipes are copyrighted by name, not by ingredient proportions or cooking technique, for instance "Toll House" cookies are protected, you can make them but you can't sell them as Toll House cookies, you can make them and call them whatever you want, just not toll house cookies.

Same with an effect, you can make and sell a Uni-Vibe you just can't call it a Uni-Vibe, or use the logo. Just as I cannot use the trademark "Uni-Vibe"  on my Classic Vibe or Vibe-Baby, this guy cannot use my Forum Vibe trademark.

So you see, with all due respect, you're saying it but skewing it.

[Paul Marossy]

I see a new custom PCB layout pattern as a kind of 'artwork' and regard the copyright on that signifying the author or as name branded. In the US all author works of creation have implied copyright even if it isn't officially registered. For example in branding, anyone can optionally use the © copyright symbol without being officially registered but if you want something like a product name officially registered as a trademark that becomes an ® instead. That being said no new pedal circuit 'design' is really totally unique as it is always influenced by something before it that sparked the idea. Copyright means an author has exclusive rights to his or her work.

IIRC, that is RG's position on the subject. Or at least it used to be.

[RedHouse]

Copyright are automatic, there is no need to apply at the US P&T office.

In the 80's Trademark law was changed so all you need to do is be actively doing business under your trademark name and it's yours w/o registration . Registration only ensures federal court assistance in international cases.

In my case I have registered my trademarks in my State and it's upheld by the federal government by default. It's all good.

[ACS]

To me, it's pretty cut and dry. If you buy or make a PCB from GGG, Tonepad, etc., build many pedals with them and sell them for a profit, that is commercial use. If you do the same and build for yourself or a friend with no profit involved, that is personal use.

Everything in between is shades of grey and self-justification.

PCBs that you get from online places or make from some place online are copyrighted and unless permission is granted for commercial use, you can't legally use it for that purpose. You would need to design your own PCB, have them made up and then offer them for sale to be legal. Circuits are not commonly patented and all the commonly cloned circuits can continue on as long as there is no copyright infringement (where you blatantly copy an existing PCB design).

If you don't want it stolen or abused, don't EVER put it on the internet. That is the way I see it anyway.

Hit the nail on the head - especially with the "To me" reference - because what's fine to one person could be abhorrent to another.  And the shades of grey in between are limitless.

I'd like to think that I err to the 'right' side of the debate - but I was recently asked by an acquaintance from a forum (not a friend, but someone I've interacted with a fair bit on that particular forum) to build him a Four Knob Rat (I'd provided Dano's Beavis Audio FKR reference in response to a question he'd posed).  He offered to pay me for this (parts and time).  So then, two dilemmas - 1. As he wanted this in a 1590B, that rules out Dano's PCB, so I default to the GGG one for the main build, and 2. As best I can tell, the "FKR" concept (or at least, that particular arrangement of clipping options, OD and Lube mod) is Dano's creation.  Now, I'd be building this as a daughter board on vero, but conceptually "it's Dano's"...

So then, I'm building a pedal for sale, using the GGG main board graphics, using a concept created by someone else (although not his artwork) - is this commercial use? At the very least should I have asked permission from both GGG and Dano?

Probably.

But I didn't.  My excuse is that I got so caught up in "OMG, someone wants me to build them a pedal!" that I didn't even consider it until I read this thread.  

The one consolation is that I've put so much time into 'getting it right' for this guy that I reckon I'm probably paying myself in the vicinity of $3.50 per hour...  Certainly won't be making a habit of it!

[Greg_G]

What hasn't yet been mentioned.. :

The forum member who did this made a mistake. The moment he was called out by Redhouse, he profusely apologized.. and asked what he could do to make it right, including offering to give the rest of the boards away or send them to Redhouse free of charge (from Poland).

The guy has clearly stated that he was making no profit.. the boards owed him $13 each and he was including worldwide postage in the $20 he was charging.

There was absolutely no intent to make a profit or hurt anyone else's profit.. it was a simple bad judgement call that the guy was willing to make right immediately.. but that wasn't enough for Redhouse who went on a rant and wanted to try to extract blood from someone... he contacted the Hosting company, and sent a Cease and Desist order.

They're the facts.. discuss.

[John Lyons]

Bummer Brad. I didn't read the post at "the other forum"  and I'm not sure I want to.
Can't believe the guy even had the boards made with your name on them. 
"Welcome to the internet yeah"...but still lame.

[rnfr]

you forgot to mention the other "fun fact".  that you immediately came out with guns drawn, about how you were going to file a claim with the hosting provider with explicit intention of having the forum pulled.    it's been said before- you get more with honey than piss and vinegar...

I really don't understand why you want to have anything to do with the diy scene if paying a fab house to get 12 boards made which you then get rid of for no profit is considered "commercial use".  you said  the commercial part was paying the fab house. really?  I mean, why bother if you are going to worry about this crap so much?   Ive never experienced this attitude before on any forum.

[RedHouse]

What hasn't yet been mentioned.. :

The forum member who did this made a mistake. The moment he was called out by Redhouse, he profusely apologized.. and asked what he could do to make it right, including offering to give the rest of the boards away or send them to Redhouse free of charge (from Poland).

The guy has clearly stated that he was making no profit.. the boards owed him $13 each and he was including worldwide postage in the $20 he was charging.

There was absolutely no intent to make a profit or hurt anyone else's profit.. it was a simple bad judgement call that the guy was willing to make right immediately.. but that wasn't enough for Redhouse who went on a rant and wanted to try to extract blood from someone... he contacted the Hosting company, and sent a Cease and Desist order.

They're the facts.. discuss.

Don't be a putz Greg, these are the facts:



Being the forum mod over at Freestomp doesn't give you the right to re-define my terms of use, specially with regard to my copyrighted and trademarked materials, you can give that a rest.

As I've said numerous times in both the thread and the PM's exchanged last night .... ITS NOT YOUR CALL... you need to stand down on this Greg.

BTW the forum was requested to remove the material last night, I see it has been removed, thanks to whoever removed it.

Funny though for a simple misunderstanding, I still have yet to see any email/PM from the OP with the request to make and sell Forum-Vibe boards, undoubtedly you'll just take that offline and continue on your merry way.

[rnfr]

that surprises you? doesn't surprise me one bit.  I don't want anything to do with the so called "forum" vibe, he probably doesn't either.  

and if this is how you handle a "simple misunderstanding",  I'd hate to see you on a bad day. 

[Greg_G]

Don't be a putz Greg, these are the facts:



Being the forum mod over at Freestomp doesn't give you the right to re-define my terms of use, specially with regard to my copyrighted and trademarked materials, you can give that a rest.

As I've said numerous times in both the thread and the PM's exchanged last night .... ITS NOT YOUR CALL... you need to stand down on this Greg.

BTW the forum was requested to remove the material last night, I see it has been removed, thanks to whoever removed it.

Funny though for a simple misunderstanding, I still have yet to see any email/PM from the OP with the request to make and sell Forum-Vibe boards, undoubtedly you'll just take that offline and continue on your merry way.

What you've posted there changes nothing I posted.. it backs it up really.

There's also this that you didn't post:

I've @#$%ed up. Please accept my public apologizes. I have no excuse other than that I really didn't order them to make a profit - just to cover expenses I've put to have vintage looking boards. It's not safe to play with chemicals since I have 2 year old baby boy. I still have full lot of boards I mentioned - I can sent them to DIY free of charge, or whole lot to you + few paxolin veros as a part of my apologizes. On top of that I never sold any single pedal I've made in my entire life period, and at this time, I have no intension to do so.

Ones again, I'm deeply sorry that I've insult you with this

Pawel

And please stop telling me to "Stand Down".. we're not in the army, and I have every bit as much right to post an opinion as do you.

[RedHouse]

you forgot to mention the other "fun fact".  that you immediately came out with guns drawn, about how you were going to file a claim with the hosting provider with explicit intention of having the forum pulled.    it's been said before- you get more with honey than piss and vinegar...

I really don't understand why you want to have anything to do with the diy scene if paying a fab house to get 12 boards made which you then get rid of for no profit is considered "commercial use".  you said  the commercial part was paying the fab house. really?  I mean, why bother if you are going to worry about this crap so much?   Ive never experienced this attitude before on any forum.

Again a mod "fact", hmm lets see the real text of the request:

"I'm officially asking you mods to ban/block/lock the threads, whatever you need to do to stop allowing my work to be commercially used w/o my permission/consent."

Then you (or one of the other two) locked me out of the thread, note that the OP had still yet to reply at that point, that is when I sent email to the Freestomp moderators (there were 3 on last night) and said if you wanna play hardball, lets rock.

"Quote RnFR: ...he is keeping 2 of them, and selling the rest to try an recoup his money for the fabrication costs, and supply other forumites with boards. it was a total of 10 or 12 boards in all. no one here is making boards for mass commercial use, it's just a very small run for forum members who can't etch at home. if you still have a problem with this, I'll be glad to junk the thread, if not, I'll reopen it. thanks for listening.
"

Instead you and the other two mods spent the next few hours badmouthing me in private PM's and on the public thread, and spitting insults about me having to go over your heads, in fact your position was as follows {Quote RnFR's PM} "we really don't think anyone is using your work for commercial purposes. it is strictly diy." then publicly telling me I need to get over it and move on.

Well I disagreed, and it's my work, so again (stop me if you heard this before).... ITS NOT YOUR CALL.

[The Tone God]

Firstly it is bad "netiquette" to bring issues that occur on one forum to another forum. Secondly if you have an issue with a person deal with it in private.

Thread locked.

Andrew