How much $ or how many is "Commercial Use"

[RedHouse]

So I'm (sarcastically) wondering what the going opinion on what comprises "commercial use"or where the line is between personal and commercial use.

Like when you have a layout (like many here do) offer it up for personal DIY consumption, then people start making and selling your PCBs from your work, it that commercial use?.

How many sold and/or for what price point does "personal use" turn into "commercial use"?

This comes up tonight on another forum where I just saw a guy having my Forum-Vibe boards made in like Poland or something, then offering them up for sale on the forum for like $20/ea. He had 12 made and want's to keep 2 so he's selling 10 at $20 a piece.

"Personal" or "Commercial" use?
(I know how I feel, just wondering how you all feel)

[blooze_man]

I think if your just making pedals for yourself and end up with a surplus and want to get your money back for parts, I'd say its personal. Maybe it has to do with whether you build a pedal with the intent to sell it and make money off it or not.

[Ice-9]

It's difficult to say really, but if I were to have one pcb made for my own use from a pcb manufacturer the cost would be large so getting say 12 made would bring the cost of each unit down to an acceptable price. (probabaly the same cost to have 12 made as it would be for 1) . then If I sold the other eleven to recoup some of the manufacture cost then I would consider that personal use. On the other hand If I did do that I would also use my own artwork to make the PCB's from.

if someone was using my rtwork to make these PCB's weather personal or commercial, I would expect at least to be asked if it was ok to do so.

[therecordingart]

if someone was using my artwork to make these PCB's weather personal or commercial, I would expect at least to be asked if it was ok to do so.

Exactly. Even though a lot of artwork is floating around as "free to use" it is common courtesy to ask permission if you are going to be selling them. In all of the DIY communities I frequent the common theme is that these layouts are available for personal use. Selling a unit you built that you no longer need is fine, but any sort of volume sales is off limits or should be cleared with the creator of the layout. One touchy area is if somebody commissions you to build something for them.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

If 12 users came together in advance to get a run done together to make it viable I doubt you'd look twice, but as soon as someone does the equivalent in advance and then offers the boards at cost the interpretation of two extremely similar circumstances becomes very different.

[R.G.]

Welcome to the internet.

[caress]

Welcome to the internet.

[Paul Marossy]

To me, it's pretty cut and dry. If you buy or make a PCB from GGG, Tonepad, etc., build many pedals with them and sell them for a profit, that is commercial use. If you do the same and build for yourself or a friend with no profit involved, that is personal use.

Everything in between is shades of grey and self-justification.

PCBs that you get from online places or make from some place online are copyrighted and unless permission is granted for commercial use, you can't legally use it for that purpose. You would need to design your own PCB, have them made up and then offer them for sale to be legal. Circuits are not commonly patented and all the commonly cloned circuits can continue on as long as there is no copyright infringement (where you blatantly copy an existing PCB design).

If you don't want it stolen or abused, don't EVER put it on the internet. That is the way I see it anyway.

[slacker]

Seen as how you've gone to the trouble of stating that your layout isn't for commercial use in the documentation, then in this case, it means whatever you thought it meant when you wrote it.

I don't know anything about the situation other than what you've said, but I wouldn't call what he's done commercial, sounds like it's just a one off thing and he's just covering his costs or making a bit on the side. If he started doing it regularly with the intention of making a profit then I'd argue that it becomes commercial.
Seems to me he's clearly breaching the "terms and conditions" in your documentation though whether it's commercial or not, whether they're worth anything is up to you. That's why I don't bother putting any restrictions on what people can do with my work, I don't have the will or the means to police it. Always nice to be asked though.

[RedHouse]

Whew, then it's not just me.

Geez the way the mods over there were kicking me over it, made me re-think there for a minute.

I feel as Paul just posted, make-em-if-ya-got-em, make em for your friends, but IMHO when money changes hands, the game changes at that point. I'm OK with commissioning a build too, I see it like a custom bike or hot-rod, whoever you commission to do the work has to source the parts to do the build, but commissioning 12 at once is not personal use, and offering the excess up for $20 a board to "recover you costs" is commercial use.
(sales = commerce very simply)

This guy over on the "other" forum had a fab house make up a batch and is offering them for sale on that forum, even giving discount to mods and paid support members. When I posted the 'ol "Hey wait a minute who's selling my boards WTF" thing 1 moderator jumped in with "your over reacting, I think it's ok" then after I PMd the current mods at that moment 2 more mods jumped in both publicly in the thread and private (PM) and were giving me the old "don't be an aggressive dick" kinda attitude, in fact 2 mods said they didn't think making a "small run" and offering them for sale was "commercial use" and I should let it go.

I have had a few others making Forum-Vibe boards, before this all have done the right thing and emailed for written permission, which I gave immediately. In fact over on a different forum than the one I'm currently speaking about, there was a Forum-Vibe "group build" a while back and a guy I won't name here for privacy emailed and ask, and I gave the guy written permission to build (and "recover" his costs) for the forum group-build.
(but not a blanket sale agreement though)

This is not the first time I've found my Forum-Vibe PCB's for sale on the internet, I'm not surprised about that, but most of the time all it takes is an email or if I can't find an email address I use the whois to contact them through their host/provider and ask them to stop (or engage in an commercial agreement) and they usually do.

I'm surprised the forum mod's attitudes and how they make me out to be the bad guy because I call this out and say hey. 

Ah well, as said it's the internet, gotta expect it to happen, there's always one or two in the crowd so just keep vigilant I guess.

[Paul Marossy]

This guy over on the "other" forum had a fab house make up a batch and is offering them for sale on that forum, even giving discount to mods and paid support members. When I posted the 'ol "Hey wait a minute who's selling my boards WTF" thing 1 moderator jumped in with "your over reacting, I think it's ok" then after I PMd the current mods at that moment 2 more mods jumped in both publicly in the thread and private (PM) and were giving me the old "don't be an aggressive dick" kinda attitude, in fact 2 mods said they didn't think making a "small run" and offering them for sale was "commercial use" and I should let it go.

I have had a few others making Forum-Vibe boards, before this all have done the right thing and emailed for written permission, which I gave immediately. In fact over on a different forum than the one I'm currently speaking about, there was a Forum-Vibe "group build" a while back and a guy I won't name here for privacy emailed and ask, and I gave the guy written permission to build (and "recover" his costs) for the forum group-build.
(but not a blanket sale agreement though)

This is not the first time I've found my Forum-Vibe PCB's for sale on the internet, I'm not surprised about that, but most of the time all it takes is an email or if I can't find an email address I use the whois to contact them through their host/provider and ask them to stop (or engage in an commercial agreement) and they usually do.

I'm surprised the forum mod's attitudes and how they make me out to be the bad guy because I call this out and say hey.  

Ah well, as said it's the internet, gotta expect it to happen, there's always one or two in the crowd so just keep vigilant I guess.

Yeah, the internet has a way of bringing the lowest common denominator out of the masses.  

[slacker]

Probably worth pointing out the guy selling them apologised and agreed not to sell them after you asked him not to. After that it just turned into a pissing contest.

[Hides-His-Eyes]

I don't know what you sent to the mods, but it sure as hell rubbed them the wrong way.

[Steve Mavronis]

I had a similar experience. First I got ragged everywhere for having a copyright year notice on my clone PCB because it was my own 'custom layout' board design. Then I was mysteriously 'invited' to another forum (not the 'other' one) and I thought cool they must like my stuff or topics I post about to add my participation there. I was naive at first because they also sell etched boards 'contributed' by others. When I was asked in live chat by the owner if he could sell etched copies of my design I replied, well what do I get out of it? His answer was nothing but recognition, they have many contributors but the site owner gets all the profits like I have to help him stay afloat to support his family income. I said no because it seemed a little one sided and I don't mind if anyone wants to copy my board for their own private use as long as it isn't sold for someone else's profit. That didn't seem to go over well and later when I answered a forum users general question about 'how do you mount your boards?' with I like to use PCB mounted pots, all hell broke loose. The site owner deleted my post and lambasted my answer publicly in the users topic as some kind of on purpose personal insult to him because I know the boards he sells on the site don't use PCB mounted pots. I thought it was pretty ignorant because nothing malicious was meant by my post answer as one possible suggestion. The topic was in their 'general DIY area' and not in the separate 'store products' area. I even wrote one of his mods trying to ask why such an offense was taken reacting to my simple post but his stance was all about supporting his friend's economic situation. Ironic since after all the very custom board of mine features PCB mounted pots that they wanted me to let him sell for himself! Well it was all about supporting this poor guy's business and I was dissing him somehow with my answer to a general question not specific to any of his PCB products for sale. Even though anyone with a little creativity could drill non-connecting mounting holes to manually solder wires to the PCB mount pot legs going to the appropriate pads on any circuit board design. Oh well so I deleted my own account there after that episode. It was just stupid IMHO and that anti-FOIA behaviour makes me sick. Also going on a year after I making my first stompbox clone I haven't sold a single thing and have given probably a dozen etched PCB's away for free to anyone who's asked and abides by my restriction on selling them for profit. I have no interest in that plus my wife doesn't like the research and layout time involved for me to build myself just one pedal a year!

[petemoore]

   ''Case'' Closed !
 
  :enter theme from dragnet: ..or is it ?
 

[MoltenVoltage]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, in the U.S., according to the copyright office, you can't get a copyright on a PCB, only a patent.

I tried.  They rejected it as a "useful article" subject to patent law.

In the U.S., and absent a patent, the question of whether or not to use someone else's PCB layout is a moral one only.

If you don't want others using your layouts, keep them to yourself or patent them.

Fun fact: you also can't copyright a recipe or a font.


disclaimer - not intended as legal advice!

[Steve Mavronis]

I see a new custom PCB layout pattern as a kind of 'artwork' and regard the copyright on that signifying the author or as name branded. In the US all author works of creation have implied copyright even if it isn't officially registered. For example in branding, anyone can optionally use the © copyright symbol without being officially registered but if you want something like a product name officially registered as a trademark that becomes an ® instead. That being said no new pedal circuit 'design' is really totally unique as it is always influenced by something before it that sparked the idea. Copyright means an author has exclusive rights to his or her work.

[Gurner]

Having read the thread- it's  basically the ''pack" losing sight of the bigger picture because of the self interest (rough translation - "we want our stuff for zilch (or near zilch) & we don't care who it p1sses off") ...I wasn't even familiar with the forum you alluded to (I had to seek it out using Google & 'date restricted' searches!)....but the Mods over there are completely out of order - you're the guy that needs protecting.

But I see bad moderation all around nowadays .....most mods are woefully biased (they're human) & self interest, or 'old buddy' network, or "look at how I can flex my muscles" comes into it way too much.

it's crazy...you're the one being wronged, but they're threatening to ban you...go figure! (alas, mob mentality that's all too prevalent on the internet)

[RedHouse]

...Then I was mysteriously 'invited' to another forum (not the 'other' one) and I thought cool they must like my stuff or topics I post about to add my participation there. I was naive at first because they also sell etched boards 'contributed' by others. When I was asked in live chat by the owner if he could sell etched copies of my design I replied, well what do I get out of it? His answer was nothing but recognition, they have many contributors but the site owner gets all the profits like I have to help him stay afloat to support his family income. I said no because it seemed a little one sided and I don't mind if anyone wants to copy my board for their own private use as long as it isn't sold for someone else's profit. That didn't seem to go over well and later when I answered a forum users general question about 'how do you mount your boards?' with I like to use PCB mounted pots, all hell broke loose. The site owner deleted my post and lambasted my answer publicly in the users topic as some kind of on purpose personal insult to him because I know the boards he sells on the site don't use PCB mounted pots. ...

Steve, I think I know EXACTLY who you're talking about.

Without mentioning any names, I have (twice now) had to ask him to cease and desist, even had to go over his head once and complain to his ISP that he was hosting and selling (my) copyrighted material on his website.
(which got his attention)

He's still mad at me to this very day for not allowing him to profit off my work (without cutting me in)... go figure.

[jkokura]

It's stuff like that which makes me prefer to spend my money on PCB's elsewhere.

Jacob