Anyone use a reference speaker for prototyping?

[Bill Mountain]

I built a GGG WHRL last week and I got a chance to try it out this weekend.  I used it with my bass rig and it sounded huge with plenty of bottom.  I'm quite happy with the pedal and the simplicity leaves it open for some major tweaking!!!

Anyways, later that day I tried that same bass and pedal with a different bass rig and it sounded really trashy.  I lucked out and it sounds killer with my rig but I was disappointed with it's performance with the later rig.  I understand that eq can solves most issues but then I had a thought.  When I do go about tweaking this pedal (and many of my other projects) should I maybe setup a studio quality monitor (or a bass amp with a flatter response than I currently use) to hear my effects with no coloration so I can tune them to work on many systems.  Kind of how mixing engineers will try to mix a song so that it sounds good anywhere from cheap headphones to club sound systems?

Since most of my stuff is for me I could just use my rig as a reference but I personally change my amps and speakers more than my underwear (this is a joke but you get my point).  I would hate to buy a new rig and find that all of my effects are useless.

Anyone have any opinions on this?

[petemoore]

  The other side of the coin...
   Start with the reinforcement system when designing or choosing processing equipment, or scaled down facsimile..
  Generally speakering, when using a 2-way or 3-way system [like PA] the HF horn makes much more from HF's than a guitar speaker, much more sensative to settings and will not tend to rolloff high 'pushed' on them, this often translates to a small signal speaker simulator [two pole LP filter ?].
   When solid state amp is used, the preclumption of no distortion from the amp is stated as a given, because it is to be avoided...that makes this part simple, big enough = headroom, clean is the order of design influece [ie very little variance inserted by amplification which is linear.
  If the same is somewhat true for the speaker [all speakers compress and distort] and other speakers, great volume changeability with little tonal alteration is possible [volume change always changes tone to some degree].
   That puts as close to all the load for tone character in the Small Signal processing dept. as possible.
 
   

[Bill Mountain]

There was thread on talkbass a while back where a guy was upset that his awesome fuzz sounded like crap through the FOH.  I need to go back and reread it to see what solutions he came up with.

[Ripthorn]

The problem is that unless your speaker is in an anechoic chamber, you are still going to get coloration.  I actually think it would be easier to have a good eq that you could change along with your pedal settings to go from rig to rig and simply make notes about what eq settings are for which rig.  In the strictest sense, a reference speaker is an extremely high end piece of precision equipment, much like a Type I precision mic.  If you are talking about using a studio monitor, you will still get coloration.  I honestly think your best bet is to adapt rig to rig through something like an eq, because any time you try to make a single circuit work on a whole slew of amps, you are inherently giving up something across the board.  It's a simple optimization problem.  That being the case, perhaps you build a separate version of a circuit suited to one rig, etc., since having one box for all setups is the proverbial jack of all trades, master of none.

[Bill Mountain]

I do have access to such a chamber!

But...they would never let me use it.

I think you make some good points.

Another angle I could take would be to try to mimic the sonic qualities of my rig in the pedal.  It won't make a difference when playing though my gear but it might give me a head start when playing other amps.

[R.G.]

For (sane, at least) hifi use, speakers are designed to be uncolored. Ditto most PA speakers and studio monitors.

Musical instrument speakers, however, are just that - musical instruments, and used as such. They vary all over the map, and have dramatically colored tonal responses, measurable in frequency sweep experiments or by subbing in different speakers. For the Workhorse amp series, we literally ear tested every 12" that Eminence made at the time, as well as most 12" Celestions, and not a few other brands, including Electo Voice. Dramatically different.

[Paul Marossy]

For (sane, at least) hifi use, speakers are designed to be uncolored. Ditto most PA speakers and studio monitors.

Musical instrument speakers, however, are just that - musical instruments, and used as such. They vary all over the map, and have dramatically colored tonal responses, measurable in frequency sweep experiments or by subbing in different speakers. For the Workhorse amp series, we literally ear tested every 12" that Eminence made at the time, as well as most 12" Celestions, and not a few other brands, including Electo Voice. Dramatically different.

Yeah, I can imagine that it made it a hard decision to pick a speaker. What did you guys finally end up using?

[petemoore]

  These things can't be separate, but attempts to stop time for purposes of discussing the cyclic interactions between amp speaker etc.:
   Speaker vary so much that which speaker type if not which actual device [specs sheet] is critical because 'speaker' has very wide or narrow definition and frequency extension Vs. effeciency etc.
  ''Amp'' is less difficult and can be largely simplified for discussion if big = clean...the input wave looks very much like the output wave.
   Brings it right back to the speaker in most SS applications, the amp is figured out to be ~linear. Or to an SS amp which 'needs help' [larger amp or 'another]. Or to a tube amp which is used for 'tone' which it gets only within a relatively small range of volumes.
   So...there's the CMOS being tube-like they way they do the the results from someone taking the time to wire it up>fire it up>try it out & tweek it, but being 'ugly' through the 'other speaker [or amp that is contributing unwanteds that could be adressed/eliminated].
  The amp is made to be tube [which might work] or solid state with PS/current capability to drive:
   Back to the speaker, this time looking at the impedance/effeciencies...
  They're generally easier to drive if not a MONDO sized monster of heavyweight proportions intended to be driven into extreme LF's of categories where you need some sub-bass and megawatt driving amp to get it moving, speakers like this are rather difficult to incorporate into a system that 'sings' at guitar-frequency ranges.
  The crossover also poses difficulties, thrown in for good discussion measure, depending...makes good discussion of 'funnyline' response...singing an octave through a thrown together Xover'd 2-way w/HD drivers...LA LA la la LA LA LA L A La...some of the tone are at frequencies which are 'stubborn' to the speakers or Xover. Distortion or attenuation at those frequency 'can' be compensated to some extent by eq.
  So...the 'bridge' to PA-HI-Fi guitar that sounds like guitar amp is a long, and at the end is sometimes a barrier that simply doesn't allow the same free-flow which creates singing tone over guitar frequency band.
  The 'mass on a spring' which guitar amps take great advantage of by using coneweights and speaker suspensions/shooting for a 'right' proportion of speaker Vs. amp to reach goal of sound that 'sings like string[s, largely gets lost on 15'' and a Horn type PA, and X-overD/drivers/cabinets.. either meticulously designed and constructed or thrown together [the difference is impossible for me to miss, when others insist there is no difference].
  Two important things you have working for you now are CMOS tublike effect and a set of discerning ears.
   As noted the huge tone change was not in the Lama.
  The variety of sounds of speakers is very wide.
  HF's: through a horn there are 2 easy ways to make it more guitar amp sounding...cut highs across the board until it's dull [as is usually the case when turning treble to lose HF-horn tone]...unplug 1 lead from the horn.
  LF's...EQ !
   By the time all that is done the sound will not be the same, heavy compensations never = = outcome.
  I'd see about finding a cheap digital jobby then try to beat that using analog attack ! ! [or haul around a nice little 'full range' guitar speaker].
 
   

[R.G.]

Yeah, I can imagine that it made it a hard decision to pick a speaker. What did you guys finally end up using?

The Celestion Seventy 80 (or "7080"). It produced a really solid bass thump and clear highs without being irritating in both a single 12" small cabinet and a 2x12. The single 12 cab was a killer sound to me. It fit everything my prejudices want in a guitar speaker - but that is just my ears. 

It's not even Celestion's most expensive speaker. Just good, by the measurement that it fits my personal prejudices.

[Paul Marossy]

Yeah, I can imagine that it made it a hard decision to pick a speaker. What did you guys finally end up using?

The Celestion Seventy 80 (or "7080"). It produced a really solid bass thump and clear highs without being irritating in both a single 12" small cabinet and a 2x12. The single 12 cab was a killer sound to me. It fit everything my prejudices want in a guitar speaker - but that is just my ears.  

It's not even Celestion's most expensive speaker. Just good, by the measurement that it fits my personal prejudices.

Celestions, huh? Ha ha, I have some somewhat derided English made G12S-50s Celestion speakers in my self-modded Fender 2x12 Hot Rod DeVille, and they sound great in it.

I hear good things about that Seventy 80 speaker.