What Defines "Hand Built"?!

[Paul Marossy]

IMHO when I see terms like "hand built" and bouteek I think it really just suggesting that there is a properly trained human in the process to ensure final QA. I believe that how or where a product is built does not matter if the QA is being enforced. Everything else is jumping around that issue (i.e. SMD vs. through hole, machine vs hand, pcb vs. hand wired, etc.).

Sorry, but I don't think lying is OK regardless of who does QC. It's a very black and white issue AFAIC.

[R.G.]

Sorry, but I don't think lying is OK regardless of who does QC. It's a very black and white issue AFAIC.

"Lying" implies intent. I don't know the case details, but I'm sure that William Jefferson Clinton never lied - he believe all that stuff he said, even when he was saying under oath that "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is".

I've been forced at times in my life to deal with ... um, unusual personalities.    There is a recognized personality disorder that not only says things that are verifiably different from objective fact, but **they come to believe what they said**. It makes them very difficult to deal with if you try to deal in facts.

[Paul Marossy]

Ha ha, good point R.G.

[The Tone God]

Sorry, but I don't think lying is OK regardless of who does QC. It's a very black and white issue AFAIC.

I can fully understand opening up a product faced with something that was obviously majority built by machines feeling that the concept of hand built was somewhat over stated. Perfectly normal.

It is a black and white issue but not in a way you would like and is part of the point I'm trying to make for the benefit of everyone. My understanding, atleast according to U.S. laws, is that all it takes to make the claim that something is "hand built" is for one or more of the manufacturing operation(s) be perform by a person or persons. By that definition all one has to do to be able to claim their product is hand built for example is have someone attach the knobs. It will be considered the same level as someone who explicitly builds everything from scratch. So you see it is black and white just not where most of us would put the line. This is why making the claim "hand built" is pretty much pointless and why I just can't really care about these terms. Its like "all natural", "organic", "lite", "free range", etc.

I care more about the final quality of the product. I don't care how it is built.

Andrew

[Paul Marossy]

My understanding, atleast according to U.S. laws, is that all it takes to make the claim that something is "hand built" is for one or more of the manufacturing operation(s) be perform by a person or persons. By that definition all one has to do to be able to claim their product is hand built for example is have someone attach the knobs. It will be considered the same level as someone who explicitly builds everything from scratch. So you see it is black and white just not where most of us would put the line. This is why making the claim "hand built" is pretty much pointless and why I just can't really care about these terms. Its like "all natural", "organic", "lite", "free range", etc.

I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care.  

[spargo]

For me, when I hear "hand-built" in regard to pedals, my hope is that the end product will be more unique than mass manufactured offerings.  Maybe a different than usual overdrive circuit with a unique paint scheme, or additional mods you won't find on a boss pedal.  There is uniqueness.

Although it may be hand built, it's certainly not hand MADE.  Did you cast the enclosure?  Mix the paint?  Build the switches yourself?  No.  So, hand assembled would be a better term maybe.

With that said, I realize it's not totally hand built if a board is assembled by a robot, but really, they do a better job at that most of the time.   Granted, it seems unlikely your average small-scale boutique builder would have the resources or be willing to have boards assembled for them.  Having un-filled PC boards made I could see though.  More reliable and much easier than etching boards one by one.

[Paul Marossy]

Although it may be hand built, it's certainly not hand MADE.  Did you cast the enclosure?  Mix the paint?  Build the switches yourself?  No.  So, hand assembled would be a better term maybe.

That's really my point in all of this. "Hand Assembled" is a more accurate term. Well, sort of.

[Perrow]

I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care.  

The other .045% is the grey area of consumers

[spargo]

I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care.  

The other .045% is the grey area of consumers

And the leftover 0.405% did not do so well in math. 

[Perrow]

I know that's how the law may be, but I think it's stupid. I know that it doesn't matter to 99.5% of guitar players that buy a "hand made" product that really isn't, though. I'm that other 0.05% that does care.  

The other .045% is the grey area of consumers

And the leftover 0.405% did not do so well in math. 

Doh!

[DougH]

In our shop, one person builds each guitar, with a fanatical dedication to doing each step right, all adding up to a guitar which is the product of one persons labor.  I have no real problem with small shops that have more than one guy on an instrument calling themselves hand built, as long as what they are doing is a work of real craftsmanship, and not mass produced factory production.  If there is anybody doing one task, repetitively, day after day, with no variation, that isn't a "hand-built" instrument.  

It is, though, a rather ephemeral concept, though, I must admit.  


Gabriel

That's a different and probably more useful distinction IMO, but not "hand-built". Maybe if you can come up with an economical way to phrase "not built on an assembly line" you might have something.

If it's important for a customer to feel that only one person touched "his baby" throughout the whole construction process and was completely focused on that one widget coming out "right", that would be useful information. (Whether, as a manufacturing process, that is really more consistent, higher quality, or more efficient than an assembly line, I would have no idea.)

[markeebee]

Maybe if you can come up with an economical way to phrase "not built on an assembly line" you might have something.

Ohh ooh, I know.

Boutique.

Do I have something?

[R.G.]

If it's important for a customer to feel that only one person touched "his baby" throughout the whole construction process and was completely focused on that one widget coming out "right", that would be useful information.
(Whether, as a manufacturing process, that is really more consistent, higher quality, or more efficient than an assembly line, I would have no idea.)

This made me think a bit. In making guitars, arguably acoustic guitars more than electrics, hand work does matter, because the materials are so variable. Having a human with skill and experience in selecting and tuning each piece can make a difference.

Contrast that to electronic parts, where a good deal of effort on the part of some very smart people over a period of about a century now has been applied to making the parts as consistent and non-varying as they can be. As a thought experiment, how much different can a circuit sound if you hand-select between the 1K resistors in a bin? At most it will be the resistor tolerance as mapped onto the human hearing sensitivities. For many circuits, it will make little or no difference. And the idea of "hand built" digital circuits gets very close to absurd.

What advertisers want you to hear when they say "hand built" is "built with individually selected parts, each one chosen for its contribution to the whole result, and tuned by a skilled, experienced human." The fallacy hidden inside that, even if it's literally true, is that for this to be good, there must be enough variation in the parts and processes to make a difference. If the variation is not there, or not in ways that matter to the final result, then no amount of selection will make a difference, other than in the mind of the beholder, and that being different in each beholder.

Case in point: solder joints. Have you read advertising copy about "hand soldered", perhaps with "silver bearing solder"? Do you really think you can hear a difference in an electrical connection made by hand soldering (above a minimal level of making a decent joint) over a properly set up wave soldered joint, all other things being equal? And can you *hear* that there is 2% silver in the solder? If you do, I really, really, really want you as a customer... 

OK, I guess that's not true for me personally, or I'd keep my mouth shut on issues like this. I can't bring myself to do that.

In a perverse way, responding well to outrageous or nonsensical claims in advertising is a process where the customer selects themself as an easy mark. All other things being equal, slightly manipulative sellers *would* like customers who perceive value where there is arguably none. If you advertise in a manner that pulls in that set of customers, you can sell them ... er, let's just say "wild claims and not much real value".  Hmm. It strikes me that there must be some people who are selling basically the same stuff under different labels, with different paint jobs but everything else the same, to different customer sets, but different advertising claims. The customers select which set of advertising they like better and prefer to believe.

But I'm wandering.

For "hand selected/built/assembled/yada/yada" to have any real advantage, the materials and processes must have enough variation so that the end result *can* be radically different, outside the mind of the person reading the advertising.

[Paul Marossy]

There is a sucker born every minute. All they need is to hear the right buzz word(s) before they shell out the dough.

[DougH]

In making guitars, arguably acoustic guitars more than electrics, hand work does matter, because the materials are so variable. Having a human with skill and experience in selecting and tuning each piece can make a difference.

Contrast that to electronic parts, where a good deal of effort on the part of some very smart people over a period of about a century now has been applied to making the parts as consistent and non-varying as they can be. As a thought experiment, how much different can a circuit sound if you hand-select between the 1K resistors in a bin? At most it will be the resistor tolerance as mapped onto the human hearing sensitivities. For many circuits, it will make little or no difference. And the idea of "hand built" digital circuits gets very close to absurd.

That's a good point. The "bricks" you build with when building a guitar are much more variable by definition than electronic parts - esp when dealing with lo-fi audio spectrum stuff which is pretty forgiving of some variability.

And any perceived sonic advantage of a "hand-built" digital circuit is not "very close" to absurd, it is absurd. 

In a perverse way, responding well to outrageous or nonsensical claims in advertising is a process where the customer selects themself as an easy mark. All other things being equal, slightly manipulative sellers *would* like customers who perceive value where there is arguably none. If you advertise in a manner that pulls in that set of customers, you can sell them ... er, let's just say "wild claims and not much real value". 

I think that's the most succinct description of the boutique audio cable industry that I've ever read... 

[Paul Marossy]

In a perverse way, responding well to outrageous or nonsensical claims in advertising is a process where the customer selects themself as an easy mark. All other things being equal, slightly manipulative sellers *would* like customers who perceive value where there is arguably none. If you advertise in a manner that pulls in that set of customers, you can sell them ... er, let's just say "wild claims and not much real value". 

I think that's the most succinct description of the boutique audio cable industry that I've ever read... 

That's a whole other subject! 

[The Tone God]

I remember seeing a vacuum cleaner manufacturer, I believe it was Melee, building units using the model of having a single person assemble the unit completely from start to finish. They found the failure rate was much lower verse having a set of individuals who performs only one step in the process. So something could be said about having a single individual assemble a unit from scratch. I still think QA is the important thing.

I had a friendly conversation awhile ago with a fairly well known builder. They were showing off their drill press that they use to drill their boxes and how they were handmade as some point of pride. I noticed the finish on the holes was alittle rough so I made some friendly suggestions to improve the quality (change the bit type / coating, different lube, spindle speed, etc.). They implied I didn't know what I was talking about that the holes were the best that can be done and they have been building stuff for a few years that was just fine. I politely replied that I have many years of machining experience and the finish on the holes were poor when compared to the holes I make with my CNC mill and I'm trying to give them the benefit of my years of experience. At that point they claimed there was no way the holes made by a CNC mill will ever better then handmade holes. I decided to let the issue drop at that point as I saw it would be pointless to discuss any further with their view already skewed.

I guess the point of the story I'm trying to make is that the "handmade is better" line of thinking is another myth held on to not just by buyers but sometimes builders.

While I pointed out the legal definition of "hand made" I know us here would have a different definition so the points I was dancing around earlier was:

1. Where is the line when a product stops being "hand made" ?

2. Does it really matter ? Is there a measurable loss when that point is crossed ?

I know these are going to be matters of personal opinion but it would interesting none the less.

IMHO just because something is handmade does not mean it is better. There are steps that can be done better by machine.

Andrew

[Paul Marossy]

Just for the record, nowhere did I say that hand made was better. I'm just pointing out that a wave soldered PCB with 100% SMD components and every single component being PCB mounted is not hand made, or hand crafted. The only thing "hand made" about that is soldering the pots to the PCB and maybe the 3PDT switches, too. This is not a QC issue AFAIAC, it's the proper use of terms and accurately representing a product, not lying about it. But apparently the law in this case gives people a license to do whatever the hell they want and call it "hand made". Sorry, but I think that is a real crock of hot stinking horse manure.

On top of that, it's even worse if the manufacturer claims that it was built in the USA and it really wasn't. But that's a whole other issue. So does no one care if a product was basically made in China but it says "Made In The USA" on it? It would bother me a lot, because it's a bold faced lie.

[Ice-9]

Weather or not something is hand made or machine made is one thing but, just as important an issue also needs addressing and that's some people don't know how to use the tools at their disposal, I have honestly seen people try and drill holes in steel with a 1" wood cutting flat bit. I have also seen people use drill bits that are so blunt that they try and burn there way through a soft aluminium enclosure.

I think the point I am trying to make is that when the term "hand made" is used it is usually for the reason to tell people that whatever it is there selling is of a high quality craft manship (not always case).
Now a correctly set up CNC drill can do a better job at nicer drilled holes than some bloke with a handheld drill and blunt bit. On the other hand a person who knows how to use a hand held drill and correct bits can make a better job than an idiot on a cnc machine.

Paul you posted as I was writing this reply, Yes i also realized that the topic has slightly strayed into quality rather than "hand made or not handmade debate" In terms of hand made , in reality in this day and age i don't think there is a single thing that can be described as 100% hand made. Just as an example if any electronic circuit has a semiconductor in it then a machine made it . Who made the silicon ??

It would be more accurate to actually print on an enclosure "God Made" Now that would cause some debate wouldn't it.

[R.G.]

It would be more accurate to actually print on an enclosure "God Made" Now that would cause some debate wouldn't it.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

Now we're going to see advertising saying "God made this pedal. You can't do better than that..."