AC Line Noise. Please Help.

ayayay! · May 02, 2011, 10:23:11 AM

Scenario: 3 different amps, 4 different guitars, straight into the amp. Amp is the ONLY thing plugged into an outlet in the entire house. Tried different outlets on different breakers. Killed every appliance, deep freezer, Wii, air freshener, dimmer, and Leapster charger.

Problem: Even after trying to isolate everything down to just 1 outlet running, I get this horrible line noise. Not your typical 60Hz, but a "ticking" that comes through the speaker. A little better with humbuckers, but still prevalent. Removes all chances of decent recording.

Cause: I'm certain it's the transformer in my neighbors yard (which is the one my power comes from as well.) They replaced it a few months back, and it has ticked ever since. Utility company sees no problem, and in their defense, we've had zero power problems since they replaced it. Of course, through my amp is the only place this appears to be noticeable.

Solutions? Would a Furman power conditioner help? I'm so frustrated and want to do this on the cheap, and fast.

Thanks in advance!

Govmnt_Lacky · May 02, 2011, 10:34:02 AM

My first inclination is to say this:

The ONLY variable(s) that did not change in this experiment is...

1) The Transformer
2) YOUR AMP

You mentioned that the power company could not detect any issues. Have you looked at your amp as the possible problem source?

Good Luck

R.G. · May 02, 2011, 10:45:00 AM

I sympathize. AC power line problems are everywhere.

Given that it's an AC power line problem, the solutions may not be easy or cheap. Without knowing more about the nature of the ticking, I can only guess at what might help. Is the ticking at line frequency - that is, it's a 60Hz buzz more than a tick - or is it a periodic tick? And if so, how long between ticks?

There is a good solution, but it's not cheap. Take a look at my article about cleaning up the AC power line from Musician's Hotline/Premier Guitar: http://www.premierguitar.com/education/200611_educationcenter_techviews.asp. As far as I can tell without opening one up, the Furman stuff uses a tap-changing regulator and some filtering. The primo solution is the Constant Voltage Transformer. These are big and heavy, and expensive unless you get them surplus, but they are the best filtering possible short of an isolated motor/alternator set. Ebay sometimes has them in the $50-$100 range, but count on shipping a very heavy package if you do that. For best results, you want the "harmonic neutralized" or "sine wave output" type.

Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on May 02, 2011, 10:34:02 AM
1) The Transformer
2) YOUR AMP
You mentioned that the power company could not detect any issues. Have you looked at your amp as the possible problem source?

He mentioned three different amps and multiple guitars.

Govmnt_Lacky · May 02, 2011, 10:51:36 AM

Quote from: R.G. on May 02, 2011, 10:45:00 AM
He mentioned three different amps and multiple guitars.

*** slaps forehead ***

DOH!

ayayay! · May 02, 2011, 10:56:14 AM

Haha, that's Okay GL, no worries.

R.G, I need to put up a recording of this. A vid perhaps. Hopefully tonight. I'm guessing about 3-4 ticks per second. I'm used to hearing 60Hz hum as more of a, well, hum.

This reminds me of the insects in movies that are about to take over Los Angeles and communicate via "clicking." Oh if I sit and listen, I can hear the frequency vary slower and faster quite often.

My drummer has a Monster conditioner for sale but I try to avoid those products. Thanks for the link R. G., reading it now...

On another note, I gigged Saturday night and all was well, and this bar was like 80 years old.

Govmnt_Lacky · May 02, 2011, 11:01:50 AM

You mention that you share the transformer with a neighbor. Have you tried to ask the neighbor if they have the same problems? Maybe even ask to plug your amp(s) in at their home to see if you get the same noise?

This way, you could isolate the problem. If you get the same "ticking" over there, you know its the transformer and/or something associated with it.

If you do not, then you know it is a problem exclusively with YOUR house/wiring.

Good Luck

ayayay! · May 02, 2011, 11:04:54 AM

I like where you're going GL. I had thought of this, but thought, "Well they'll never notice a problem since they don't have amps over there." But you're right, plugging my amp in over there would help to see if it's my house or the transformer.

ayayay! · May 03, 2011, 01:37:52 PM

Found a Furman M-8 on CL. (Actually, it's kinda funny. It was at the JHS Pedals/Music store)

Crossing my flippers...

therecordingart · May 03, 2011, 02:13:53 PM

Quote from: ayayay! on May 03, 2011, 01:37:52 PM
Found a Furman M-8 on CL. (Actually, it's kinda funny. It was at the JHS Pedals/Music store)

Crossing my flippers...

Isn't the M-8 just a rackmount surge protector?

ayayay! · May 03, 2011, 02:27:26 PM

Yes, that and a power conditioner. Supposedly.

therecordingart · May 03, 2011, 02:31:42 PM

Quote from: ayayay! on May 03, 2011, 02:27:26 PM
Yes, that and a power conditioner. Supposedly.

I might be wrong, but I'd look again. I thought the M-8 was a surge protector with RFI/EMI filters...not so sure it'll help in this case.

ayayay! · May 03, 2011, 02:35:36 PM

I honestly have no idea and won't know the results until I get to plug it in tonight. I'm going off of this:

http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/manuals/MERIT_SERIES_manual.pdf

M-8
The M-8 power conditioner provides 9 switched
outlets for powering equipment. It not only
protects anything plugged into it from spikes
and surges, but also has a built in AC noise
filter to rid the system of RFI / EMI interference.
This allows equipment to function better and
last longer.

tiges_ tendres · May 03, 2011, 07:12:45 PM

Do you have a burglar alarm in your house by any chance? We had one that when switched on would cause a series of odd noises to come out of amps.

ayayay! · May 03, 2011, 09:19:30 PM

Nope. No burglar alarm. Haven't had a chance to test it at my neighbor's house yet. Hoping to soon. Furman M-8 didn't help a lick.

Didn't really expect it to but I guess I'm kinda desperate.

Also tried killing the circuit breakers that dimmers were on (I only have 2 in the house) in case they were still making noise. *Sigh* No luck.

Oh well. I'll keep persevering.

Govmnt_Lacky · May 04, 2011, 07:53:22 AM

Quote from: ayayay! on May 03, 2011, 09:19:30 PM
Nope. No burglar alarm. Haven't had a chance to test it at my neighbor's house yet. Hoping to soon. Furman M-8 didn't help a lick. Didn't really expect it to but I guess I'm kinda desperate.

Also tried killing the circuit breakers that dimmers were on (I only have 2 in the house) in case they were still making noise. *Sigh* No luck.

Oh well. I'll keep persevering.

Try plugging in at the neighbor's house. I am sure that will answer your questions

Zipslack · May 04, 2011, 09:08:58 AM

Actually, you may want to try something with an EMI/RFI filter (a real filter - not just a simple RC network). If it's a ticking noise, even though you say it's only 3-4 ticks per second (180-240 Hz), it may be small spikes that would have fast transients that would be attenuated by a decent EMI filter (by decent, I mean differential and common-mode rejection using inductors and caps). Even a surge protector with cheap EMI/RFI filtering may have an affect and would let you know if you're on the right track.

Another option to consider that may be cheaper/easier - try using a cheap computer UPS, available at most electronics/computer stores and even at Wal-Mart. Power conditioning and filtering with battery back-up for not a lot of money. Sometimes you can get them second-hand for free or close to free because the internal battery stops charging properly and people don't want to pay the expense to replace the battery. You don't need the battery - just the conditioning and filtering.

ayayay! · May 04, 2011, 09:20:07 AM

Quote from: Zipslack on May 04, 2011, 09:08:58 AM
Actually, you may want to try something with an EMI/RFI filter (a real filter - not just a simple RC network). If it's a ticking noise, even though you say it's only 3-4 ticks per second (180-240 Hz), it may be small spikes that would have fast transients that would be attenuated by a decent EMI filter (by decent, I mean differential and common-mode rejection using inductors and caps). Even a surge protector with cheap EMI/RFI filtering may have an affect and would let you know if you're on the right track.

Another option to consider that may be cheaper/easier - try using a cheap computer UPS, available at most electronics/computer stores and even at Wal-Mart. Power conditioning and filtering with battery back-up for not a lot of money. Sometimes you can get them second-hand for free or close to free because the internal battery stops charging properly and people don't want to pay the expense to replace the battery. You don't need the battery - just the conditioning and filtering.

I've got like 8 of them at work. I'll try it.

wavley · May 04, 2011, 02:45:30 PM

I've recently had this exact same problem, more of a beep though, annoying enough on it's own, when you overdub parts you get phasing in the beeps, FUN!

The problem was my brand new Fujitsu ductless HVAC emitting RFI, even when it was off, it only went away when I cut it at the panel. Opened it up, put ferrite chokes on all of the control and fan wires... problem solved.

ayayay! · November 24, 2011, 11:01:39 AM

Sorry to dig up this old one, but it's not a problem anymore! Here's what happened: Saturday night it was ridiculously windy in KC. I'd seen my lights flicker once, but that's it. Well apparently, that wasn't the case with my neighbor and hers were flickering constantly. I was making some tacos about 7:30 and the power went out. I headed toward the garage to grab more flashlights and saw a power truck in my neighbors backyard, so this was obviously somewhat planned. 25 minutes later, power was back.

I've noticed all this week: No ticking!!! Dunno what they did next door, but it fixed it. I doubt they replaced the whole transformer on the pole (her and I share the same one,) as the one that's up there looks like the same old one, but I was waiting a few days to be sure that noise was gone. It is! I can play my Tele and Strat again without that awful high pitched whine and ticking!

markeebee · November 24, 2011, 11:28:37 AM

Wow, there'll be a big market for those magic tacos......

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AC Line Noise. Please Help.