someone upped this on "another" forum...worth a look!!!!!

[R.G.]

They'll both make contact, but need separate outputs, right? I was referring to bending the solder points, not the contact points in the switch itself. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the diagram. Center position links 24 & 25, 26 & 23, but NOT 25 & 26.

Actually, the difficulty is that I can't write down what I'm thinking very clearly. 

What I meant the drawing to show, and to say was that the single pole switches between 24 and 25, and 23 and 26 are both closed in the center position. pushing that lozenge-shaped actuator in the drawing upwards leaves 23 and 26 together and pushing it down from center leaves 24 and 25 together and opens 23 an 26. Which is what I think you mean... I do fine with the electronics, it's the ENGLISH I can't do.

But, since I'm probably using mini toggles for all the other switches, I'll probably just go with 2xSPST. Although, now that I think about it, that allows one to select "neither," which was not an option on the original unit. Hmmm...

That'll work. I was looking for rockers with a center-both-on position. Those exist, but they're rare and not Mouser-stocked, which is my first test for "is a part available?".

Here's another question for those enlightened guys who have one. When/how/which lights come on with the actions of which switches?

[Keppy]

What I meant the drawing to show, and to say was that the single pole switches between 24 and 25, and 23 and 26 are both closed in the center position. pushing that lozenge-shaped actuator in the drawing upwards leaves 23 and 26 together and pushing it down from center leaves 24 and 25 together and opens 23 an 26. Which is what I think you mean...

Yup, we're saying the same thing 

[R.G.]

OK, I did find them at Mouser. They're about $10 each, minimum.

I think I'll figure something else out.

[R.G.]

OK, got it.

This is a weird use. That switch is allowing/disallowing two unrelated things that are not signal voltages, but carry odd bits of control current to two different circuits. Ordinary CMOS switches can't live in the 35V (or more) environment, and simple BJT, JFET and MOSFET switches don't conduct well enough bidirectionally to be simple. Worse, the switch application does not lend itself to shunt switching (which is easy with BJTs). It needs a series switch with low on resistance and high off resistance.

If you look at that switch in the reverse direction, it's deciding which of two simple SPST switches must be forced off. In the center, it allows them both. So we can use a center-off toggle switch, and make the two non-center throws be an inhibit of one or the other of the SPSTs. In the middle, neither is inhibited. But we need a relay for that.

Mouser has relays, and that's an OK thing to do, but they're biggish, even the small ones, and wear out, arc, etc. But Mouser also has MOSFET-output solid state relays. The Avago 630-ASSR-4119-001E is an SPST in a 6-pin DIP, and it turns on when there is 3ma of current through it's LED input side. It turns on to less than 10 ohms, which is close enough to zero for these applications. So we can use two of them ($1.65 each) plus a couple of BJTs which are turned off by the "on" positions of the On-Off-On toggle, and have the same logical and analog function. And it offers the possibility to get cosmetically matching switches to control things, so the box looks purdy (that's Texican for "looks nice".)

That one took a while.

[pinkjimiphoton]

They'll both make contact, but need separate outputs, right? I was referring to bending the solder points, not the contact points in the switch itself. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding the diagram. Center position links 24 & 25, 26 & 23, but NOT 25 & 26.

Actually, the difficulty is that I can't write down what I'm thinking very clearly. 

What I meant the drawing to show, and to say was that the single pole switches between 24 and 25, and 23 and 26 are both closed in the center position. pushing that lozenge-shaped actuator in the drawing upwards leaves 23 and 26 together and pushing it down from center leaves 24 and 25 together and opens 23 an 26. Which is what I think you mean... I do fine with the electronics, it's the ENGLISH I can't do.

But, since I'm probably using mini toggles for all the other switches, I'll probably just go with 2xSPST. Although, now that I think about it, that allows one to select "neither," which was not an option on the original unit. Hmmm...

That'll work. I was looking for rockers with a center-both-on position. Those exist, but they're rare and not Mouser-stocked, which is my first test for "is a part available?".

Here's another question for those enlightened guys who have one. When/how/which lights come on with the actions of which switches?

the lights are always on as soon as you power up. all of them are. the formant switches are white when up, and red when down.
the fuzz switch and the others are either two colors or three...i don't have it right in front of me.
the lights don't change color, the switches don't change color..depending on which way the switch is tripped, a different colored piece of gel like used in spotlights is put over the lamp, thereby changing the color thru the clear trigger part of the switch.

[R.G.]

the lights are always on as soon as you power up. all of them are. the formant switches are white when up, and red when down.
the fuzz switch and the others are either two colors or three...i don't have it right in front of me.
the lights don't change color, the switches don't change color..depending on which way the switch is tripped, a different colored piece of gel like used in spotlights is put over the lamp, thereby changing the color thru the clear trigger part of the switch.

OK. Do the lights on the fall plate go on and off when you hit the footswitches? The wiring looks like they do.

[pinkjimiphoton]

yes. as long as one of the three filter switches on the right side of the control board is in the up position, you have a wah effect, vowel, parallell wah, or counter or any combination of the three...and it's always active as a wah of one kind or another if one of the three switches is thrown.

the fall board switches when on illuminate the corresponding lamp on the floorboard. when the stereo switch is on, the light is on, and the second output jack is active. when off, it shorts the jack to ground. the bypass switch is on when the effect is in bypass, rather than "on" tho, which is backwards from normal convention.

the switches up top really do look like gibson style pickup switches, i thing a three pickup style les paul style switch would work...the original ones are about 2.5 inches long and vertical.

when the formant switches are off, so is the wah...in that case, it's like a treble-boosted buffer, mine is just above unity gain.
when ya kick on the fuzz, it's rude...sounds much better when one of the formant switches is on, then it's reminiscent of a morley power wah fuzz.

the percussion repeat (labeled fuzz repeat) is weak tho, and barely does anything other than tick. when i broke it the other day tho, it worked just like the percussion repeat on an electronic organ...it was cool, kind of a fuzzy tremolo.


the switches on the fall board's lamps are

red : stereo and bypass
blue: animation
green : fuzz

on the control board, left to right,

fuzz down orange
fuzz up red

slow is orange, fast is green

select switch down is white, in the middle green, up is blue

the formant switches are either red when down or green when up.

hope that helps.

[digi2t]

OMFG!!!!!! I may have hit pay dirt. I found this vintage ludwig drum site, so I decided to send them a question about the Phase II documentation. I got this response;

"Good question.  I might have some literature on this item.  I can tell you that
Bill Ludwig III is a friend of ours and we have talked about it. 

He and his dad did not really know much about electronics and it ended up
costing a lot more then expected.  It was a flop and they ended up giving many
away to schools to try and get some interest with it.

I have all of the original order forms and who got them with the serial numbers. 
One of those projects yet to be displayed to the public.

Let me do some digging.

You can also find me on the VintageDrumGuide.com

David"



How's THAT for a kick in the pants?

[Keppy]

Nice one Dino!

Jimi,

that said, ya know, the "mystery circuit" can be easily defeated simply by pulling off one lead from the fall board...

Try this yet?

[pinkjimiphoton]

nah, gotta wait til the psycho girlfriend is out of the house. my life is insane enough already without dealing with her obnoxiousness. i will try it tomorrow. maybe dino can do it?

pretty sure again, it's there to limit bass so the thing doesn't motorboat out of control.

dino...dude....nice work!!

[R.G.]

From the last round of circuit info, I found that the terminal strip circuit is an amplifier between what would be the output and the "bypass balance" pot. It amplifies the audio output. However, it's a very odd amplifier. The base of that transistor goes to pin 6 on the fall plate, no biasing components, and on the schemos that point is DC-blocked. I wonder if the added 1M resistor that I see on the pics of the fall plate board are to provide some trickle of bias to this.

In any case, it's output is what would be the filters' output, and its collector runs through that 0.1uF cap to the bypass balance pot. The 47K pulls this to ground. The 10K is a collector load to +35V. The 4401 is a 40 volt Vce device, so they're playing with device failure there, but with regulated  35V, well, maybe it survives. No emitter resistance, no biasing. It provides gain, probably dirty gain, until shown otherwise.

I have a batch of 2N5551 NPN and 2N5401 PNP devices here. They're 160V Vce devices with a gain of 100-150. I think they will work fine in this. The commoner 2N3904 and 2N4401 will probably work but the more I look at a 35V supply, the more nervous I get. 'Course, it's not near 35V on the analog/fall plate board, but certainly the devices on the console board are running high. These things are common, and cheap, about $0.6 each at Mouser. I bought 100 each for a project a while back, and still have about 80 of each.

[digi2t]

R.G., would this explain why the signal get so bright when running through the effect, but with no fuzz, or animation on. I'm wondering if it would be possible to mount this strip circuit onto the motherboard. Worse case, if one really wants to bypass the circuit, they could jumper it on the board, but at least we would be staying true to the original.

I'm still wondering though, why the fuzz slider reacts the way it does. In Fuzz, it goes from weak fuzz, to ugly gated, with the best (strongest) fuzz is in the middle of the range. In Fuzz/Voice, it goes from no sound at all, to full sound (fuzz and filtering), like a volume. Wierd-a-mundo man.

I wrote back to David at vintagedrum, and asked him if we could have any literature that was production related. If this guy has all the order forms, who knows what else he's got 

Jimi, do you mind doing the test on the terminal strip? My soldering iron just crapped out on me, and I won't have time to get one before next week. Thanks dude.

[digi2t]

R.G., I've gone over your revised wiring diagram, and I'm pleased to say that it is correct. The only thing I should point out is that both the Hi-Z, and Lo-Z input jack inputs are switched to ground when unplugged. The output jacks are normal mono jacks. Your interpretation of the FFM/Both/Fuz Rpt. switch is correct. Wouldn't a mini DP three-position (on-on-on) work for this? Like model DP-6 on this page; http://www.e-switch.com/Portals/0/Series_Pdf/100.pdf. Use one set of poles for the fuzz rpt., the other for ffm, and both wound be on in the middle. Maybe even a 3 pole (or model 4P-6, since no 3PDT on-on-on is listed) for switching the LED's?

As I mentioned before, I'm not concerned with the lamps. Personally, I would prefer to step down some DC and use LED's. If I want to get really fancy, I could use RBG LED's, and get switches with the extra poles to switch the colors, but that's not even a blip on the radar just yet.

I will most definately be using some sort of DC power supply, whether it be wall wart, or integrated, I'm not sure yet. Since there is just so much to cram into an enclosure here, I think an external supply will be called for here. I don't want to build another huge effect, I've already got one  Besides, between 2 Skyrippers, a Gristelizer, Uglyface, Parallel Universe, and a myriad of other Fuzz and noise makers, real estate on my board is at a premium  .

[pinkjimiphoton]

i willl try to test it without the terminal board later if i can. things are very uneasy on the homefront at the moment.

[digi2t]

Tuning hint...

Trimmer R20 seems to reall tune in the yoyoyo effect. This is my set up:
-Fuzz off, Animation on
-FFM intensity at max
-Rate around 3 (not too fast)
-Select switch on FFM or Both
-Formant B (Counter) on

Now strum your guitar, and back off the treadle until you start to get the yoyoyo sound. The treadle should be about the half-way between toe and heel position. Now, if you tweak the R20 trimmer, you'll hear it vary between yoyoyoyo, and wowowow. You can really dial in between a "y", and a "w" here.
You can use trimmer R29 on the motherboard to fine tune the frequency (hi-lo) for the "yo" at this point. This should define it further.
Since all the formants interdependant on the trimmers, be sure to carefully mark, or measure resistances before twiddling. Then, listen to the other trajectories for changes. Everything is a trade-off here.
If you want to change the treadle position of where you get the yoyoyo, you can jump some teeth on the treadle pot, BUT WARNING!!! this will also throw out everything else. So, personally, get your foot used to finding that sweet spot.

Neatoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyo  

[R.G.]

I'm wondering if it would be possible to mount this strip circuit onto the motherboard. Worse case, if one really wants to bypass the circuit, they could jumper it on the board, but at least we would be staying true to the original.

OK. Did. Updated Keppy with new files.

I'm still wondering though, why the fuzz slider reacts the way it does. In Fuzz, it goes from weak fuzz, to ugly gated, with the best (strongest) fuzz is in the middle of the range. In Fuzz/Voice, it goes from no sound at all, to full sound (fuzz and filtering), like a volume. Wierd-a-mundo man.

The controls do ugly things inside the circuits. The fuzz is a very odd, harsh one, as I've noted. They actually turn the power supply up and down on the fuzz in fuzz mode. Probably other stuff I haven't noticed yet.

I like to run through circuits like this because I learn bits and pieces along the way. Sometimes I learn things to NOT do too.

i willl try to test it without the terminal board later if i can. things are very uneasy on the homefront at the moment.

Keep the home front in good shape if you can. It waited over 30 years for you. It'll wait a little longer.

you'll hear it vary between yoyoyoyo, and wowowow. You can really dial in between a "y", and a "w" here.

In voice formant terms, it's varying between "eee" and "O", and our ears pick that up as "yoy-yoy". The waw is "ooooo" => "ahhh" =>"oooo"=> "ahhhh".

[digi2t]

Your interpretation of the FFM/Both/Fuz Rpt. switch is correct. Wouldn't a mini DPDT three-position (on-on-on) work for this? Like model DP-6 on this page; http://www.e-switch.com/Portals/0/Series_Pdf/100.pdf. Use one set of poles for the fuzz rpt., the other for ffm, and both wound be on in the middle. Maybe even a 3 pole (or model 4P-6, since no 3PDT on-on-on is listed) for switching the LED's?

Any thoughts on this R.G.? It seems it would work on paper. Unless I'm missing something.

[R.G.]

Any thoughts on this R.G.? It seems it would work on paper. Unless I'm missing something.

By golly, you're right! That could be made to work. Using pins 2,3 and 5,4 it would do it. And only $5.31. Good catch. Mouser also stocks the matching toggles in that line in DPDT.

Keppy is doing a great job of looking over layouts. He found a couple of bugs, and I've updated him with new files.

[digi2t]

Excellent! In the meantime, more news from the Ludwig Guru...

I recieved this email from him today, in response to my plea for information;

"Hello!  that is me

Here is the quick story for you.
Dick Schory worked for Ludwig.  He had some pull in the company because of the Dick Schory Percussion Ensemble which traveled the country on behalf of Ludwig.
He was in a meeting at Ludwig and basically said at some point everyone in the country is going to own a drum and it is time to move into another area.  This actually got the Ludwigs thinking.
So Dick had an electronics guy who designed this unit (I'm getting his name) and instead of the Ludwigs outsourcing the eletronics work they decided to do it all in-house.
They devoted an entire 1/2 floor in the factoy, made it dust free and made all of the components in-house.  Welding the electronics and making the unit.
Bill Ludwig remembers either 500 or 1000 were made and they ended up being to expensive because of the way they were manufactured. They were drum makers not electronics makers.
It ended up costing $450 and they could not sell them.  Once they realized they did not sell, they gave the salesman a few to travel with and if a dealer was mad or unhappy of drum shipments the salesman would give them one of these units.
It was designed with the lights so on stage you knew what it was doing.   He remembers it was also was easy to pack up for travel.
Bill Ludwig III is going to call Dick Schory for me and see i he has any of the schematics or other history.
I have a bunch here, but not handy.  When I start looking I sometimes can spend hours digging through it.
I will do it for you, it might take some time.

David"

You cannot imagine how profusely I thanked him in my reply. My knee's are still bleeding. 

Jimi, did you ever think, 19 pages ago, what kind of a monster this was going to turn into  MAN! am I glad I came along for the ride bro!

[pinkjimiphoton]

been one hell of a ride, for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!