String tension - all that important?

[edvard]

So I read the thread about strings and became intrigued with Naked Strings service.
I worked up a bunch of numbers using some string tension calculators I found on the web and I noticed a few things right off...

1- Naked strings do not offer a 22 or 20 in wound or plain.
it goes from 18 plain to 24 wound, a pretty big gap IMHO.
Is there a practical reason for this, or can I get custom sets elsewhere that include 22's and 20's ?

2- When I compared my meticulously calculated "Ideal Set" with most standard sets (I calculated Super Slinkys, D'Addario XL Regulars and GHS GBXL Boomers), I found the standard set tensions aren't straight across; each string varies from the mean, sometimes wildly.
Does any of this really matter?
Is uniform tension across all the strings even desirable (in other words, should I even care about custom gauges if I'm not doing alternate tunings)?
Is there a real reason for the variation in string tension in most standard sets, or is it just a function of how any given range of string diameters shakes out (in other words, are the variations on purpose or incidental)?

Or am I weird?

[Taylor]

It's of some importance to some people playing some instruments. How's that for a hedge?

You are right in thinking that most guitar sets are out of ideal. This is because people who play electric guitar and bass, for whatever reason, have been drawn to sets where all the strings have some numerical similarity. For bass, you see sets of .040, .060, .080, .100. A heavy set might add .010" to each of those numbers, but will maintain a nice round figure. Guitar sets are often similar, but of course with some small interval between strings.

You don't see that in classical guitars or other classical instruments. Rarely do sets even list the gauge, but instead a general tension like light or heavy or often the Italian language words for these terms.

For whatever reason, guitarists are into nice round numbers, so that's what sells and it's what's most common. But in terms of tension this will indeed produce inconsistency. Some might say that you don't actually want constant tension across the strings, and that would be valid if tension increased from low to high strings or vice versa. Instead, you often have lowest tension on the low and high strings, and highest tension in the middle. I don't think there's any logical purpose for this - I think it's just to have nice round numbers, and people deal with it.

So does it matter? I guess not, since most guitarists and bassists are using standard string sets with varying tension and not usually complaining. For people who are much more analytical about their approach to playing, like classical guitarists, cellists, and the like, it is of great importance and therefore you see constant tension sets here. One other situation in which it does matter is for very low strings on standard scale instruments. That would be 7-string guitars, 5-string basses, and beyond. Getting a good low B, F#, and even C# on some extended range instruments is heavily dependent on correct tension. Where scale can't be increased, higher gauge is necessary.

I think a matched-tension set is worth trying out to see if you like it. It doesn't seem to be a big deal since you've gone as long as you have and never felt there was an issue, presumably, but perhaps you'll like it more. Not an expensive experiment, so I'd say give it a go.

[Seven64]

it matters alot on a floyd rose tremolo.

i doubt it matters much on thru body guitars.

(coming from the guy with a 68 gauge string on his guitar)

[R.G.]

2- When I compared my meticulously calculated "Ideal Set" with most standard sets (I calculated Super Slinkys, D'Addario XL Regulars and GHS GBXL Boomers), I found the standard set tensions aren't straight across; each string varies from the mean, sometimes wildly.
Does any of this really matter?

Maybe. Like many things, it's a matter of objectives. If you don't know where you want to go, any direction is about as good as any other.

In this case, the tradeoffs are at least tone, sustain, and playing ease. I read once that centuries of experimentation on pianos and the like had turned up the musical opinion that the most interesting tone and sustain were obtained by thicker strings, more tightly stretched. I don't know if that's true, but thinking back on my ultra-mondo-super-skinny string days, the sound did seem kind of dead compared to medium gauge sets. Obviously playing effort goes up as strings get thicker and tighter to maintain the same note.

Is uniform tension across all the strings even desirable (in other words, should I even care about custom gauges if I'm not doing alternate tunings)?
Is there a real reason for the variation in string tension in most standard sets, or is it just a function of how any given range of string diameters shakes out (in other words, are the variations on purpose or incidental)?

Playing style and playing effort would make it matter. And I can see non-uniform string tension from side to side of the neck having a effect on neck warp. Ideally the non-uniformities should be balanced from side to side.

Most people don't think of it, but a truss rod adjustment should be done for best playability whenever you change string gauges (and hence total tension on the neck) because the truss rod helps the neck bend into just the right playing curve and relief, and not more. This is why super skinny strings put on guitars often buzz and sound dead even more than they otherwise would - the neck bends back due to truss rod tension and you lose the playing relief curve.

Or am I weird?

Probably.

But so are we all. It's a prerequisite for being human. 

[StephenGiles]

I depends on your fingers.

[PRR]

You want the RIGHT PITCH.

What sets the pitch of a string? Length. Mass. Tension.

If you somehow wanted "the same on every note", you really want a different LENGTH for each note.

On guitar the length does vary correctly as you go down the frets on one string. However you have six strings with open-pitch over a w-i-d-e span, yet all the same length (within a few threads of the bridge-screws).

On piano, the "same all notes" concept leads to 20 foot bass string and 4-inch top string.

When you go to this extreme, you see that "same all notes" does NOT work. The 20 foot string rings for days, the 4-inch string just plays "dank".

How long does a string ring? How much energy can be stored in a string? How fast does that energy leave the string?

Energy is mass times tension (and pluck/hammer displacement). The long string has far more mass. Energy loss in musical strings is bridge impedance and cycles per second. The high-pitch string is losing far more energy per second.

Yes, in music we may want the bass foundation tones to linger and the ornamental dancing high notes to fade faster. But maybe not in direct relation to pitch or "ideal" length.

And the practical problem that pianos can't go over 3 to 6 feet, and guitar strings must be "the length", a compromise between the length of your arm and fret-spacing on the high notes.

Further problem: string harmonics (and fret spacing) are ideal only if the string is "limp" at nut and bridge. Gut/nylon strings are fairly limp. Steel strings are quite stiff. If your string is shorter than ideal, then you must lower tension and increase mass. In steel strings (and a few gut strings) this allows a smaller core (limper yet strong-enough) wrapped with no-tension mass (brass wire).

And playing ease. A 0.001" string has little mass, on a long length would have to run HIGH tension to hit high pitch. High tension on hair-fine string would slice your fingers, pick, hammers.

So the difference 35 pounds or 39 pounds, 0.093" or 0.100" is really no-big-deal. If you want to idealize the guitar sound, you have six different length strings and six different fret-boards and an utterly different instrument with insane fingering.

The guitar evolved. The high string is worked at 50%-90% of its breaking strength, and its gauge is adjusted so that it has enough mass * tension to store energy and ring for a good amount of time. If you used the same gauge for the next string, you'd have to lower the tension, lower the stored energy, it rings less but should probably ring more. Use a larger gauge. As you get to the lowest pitch string, the length is too short, you must run it loose and heavy to get pitch, you typically use a wound string. Mass * tension is usually higher than the high string, but that's musically OK even desirable.

Look for a general trend of tension. Exact intervals are not needed. Steps should be smooth and monotonic like 30-35-45, not 35-30-45. There will be a jump where you go to wound strings.

Be guided by what string makers offer as "standard sets". That's their job. They been doing it for centuries, since violists stopped boiling pig-guts and winding membrane into viol strings.

[edvard]

"General trend of tension" is exactly what I'm looking for.
I understand the physics behind the swing of steel wires making vibrations I just wondered if what I was discovering was a madness I could not give a method to.

If string makers who have been "doing it for centuries" could tell me why the 3rd string should be 13.5 pounds and the 4th to be 15.7, I'd be happy.
But there's no reason besides that's the tension needed for that note with that gauge of string.
Apparently, that's considered a better thing to do than simply use a different gauge to closer average out the tension between strings, and I can find no reason to agree.

I think it's going to have to come down to simple experimentation; work up an as-close-to-even-tension set of gauges as possible with products available and string them up.
If it sounds horrible or plays like noodles mixed with razor blades, I will at least finally be able to agree with our venerable string vendors.
If not... well then I'll be vindicated and happy that my knuckle-headed surmisings were correct.

[G. Hoffman]

You're probably thinking too much about it.  The standard sets are actually pretty close to being evenly balanced, overall, but mostly those sizes have been figured out through experimentation over the last 50-80 years or so.  If one of your strings gives you a problem (assuming a well setup guitar, of course), you can try raising or lowering it's gauge and seeing if it helps.  Most of my customers who use odd gauged sets got there that way.  and most of them are blues players who wanted to be able to bend their G string a bit easier - though not all of them. 

Also, with some bridges (the PRS hardtail bridge, for instance, but anything without individually adjustable saddles), you will not be able to get the bridge to intonate properly if you use a wildly non-standard set.  Which is one of the reasons standard sets are standard.


Gabriel

[edvard]

You're probably thinking too much about it.

You're probably right.
But I can't help wondering...

I do have a Fender guitar so the individual saddles are adjustable.
Since you mention it, my G string is always harsh and buzzy sounding.
It's not hitting frets and it's intonated properly, so I always racked it up to "Strat-itis" but lowering the pickups never helped.

Back to the board...

[Paul Marossy]

For whatever reason, guitarists are into nice round numbers, so that's what sells and it's what's most common.

I must be a weirdo then. I have been using D'Addario XL120+ strings exclusively for about twelve years now. That's a 0.0095 set, in between 9s and 10s. I like them because they have a little more sustain & sound fuller than 9s but are not as hard to bend as 10s. Unfortunately, I can't go to any local music stores here and get them even though that is where I stumbled upon them once upon a time. I have to order them online now.

[PRR]

> simply use a different gauge .... I can find no reason to agree.

Ah, this gets into wire-making.

Roebling (whoever pulls wire these days) "can" make any size.

But set-up for a new size means considerable skilled labor to make the die, and more time for set-up, testing, and then running the required length.

If you order 100,000 feet, they may be happy to make any size you want.

If you order 3 feet, they ignore you; if you nag, they quote a price like thousands of dollars and unknown delivery time. For them, it really is better to keep making Standard Sizes that everybody buys, than to stop work and do a fussy little job.

99.7% (or so) of customers are happy with 10% jumps between sizes. If you are making ballpoint pen-springs, you calculate 10.0 turns of 0.009876" wire, you buy 0.01" wire (too stiff) and wind 10.25 turns. In most spring-wire design, there is another factor (length or turns) you can fiddle at trivial cost to hit your goal without exact-size wire.

Even in piano, the string designer can adjust string-length to use standard gauges.

Yes, guitar strings don't offer a length adjustment.

Even so, "most" guitarists have been tolerant of 10% jumps in standard gauges.

Such string-sets can be made from the Standard Gauges readily available from multiple wire-makers.

And our Marossy is the exception, strongly favoring a 5% jump. Which means his preferred string is not readily available. It's not wierd... D'A apparently has them, but not popular enuff to stock in stores. And it is just possible D'A got a mile of 0.0095 wire long ago, and when it's used-up they won't think it worthwhile to pay for a custom-run.

FWIW, my piano-tech friend used to buy wire in 5-pound rolls, cut as needed, and would sometimes string a different size when taste or problems suggested the original design size was mistaken. I don't recall his piano-wire coming as thin as 0.0095", though. It may be easy or hard to find a source for handy quantities of thin music-wire.

Also FWIW: for wound strings on piano, there were a few Standard Sizes which covered most situations, but when he wanted something special he called a guy in Canada who had a lathe set up to wind brass on steel with controlled tension and pitch. It is real hand-craft.

[edvard]

Also FWIW: for wound strings on piano, there were a few Standard Sizes which covered most situations, but when he wanted something special he called a guy in Canada who had a lathe set up to wind brass on steel with controlled tension and pitch. It is real hand-craft.

Wow, that would be something to see...

simply use a different gauge .... I can find no reason to agree.

Ah, this gets into wire-making.
Roebling (whoever pulls wire these days) "can" make any size.
But set-up for a new size means considerable skilled labor to make the die, and more time for set-up, testing, and then running the required length.
If you order 100,000 feet, they may be happy to make any size you want.

Well, that's not exactly what I meant.
When I said a different Gauge, I meant choosing from what's available.
I don't have my note paper handy, or I'd give a direct example, but here's the gist:

Let's say I have a set of strings that the average pull is ~14.5 lbs per string, and per-string numbers range from 13.7 to 15.5.
Now let's say ONE of those strings is up at 16.8 or down at 12.4 lbs.
I'm looking for a definite reason why it should be so, especially since simply using a different _widely available_ gauge will bring the tension on that oddball string down in the ~14.5 range.

I can totally see G.H.'s point about a blues player who wants a little more bend in his G string, but for your average plain-vanilla off-the rack string set, it doesn't make much sense unless there is some mojo to having the one or two way-off-the-average string tensions.

Once again, I'm probably making too much out of this, but I gotta admit, I'm on pins and needles for my next paycheck so I can order the custom set I have worked up just so I can give it a go.
Whether the results confirm or disprove any theories I may have given rise to, at least I will have the experience to back it up.

[G. Hoffman]

And our Marossy is the exception, strongly favoring a 5% jump. Which means his preferred string is not readily available. It's not wierd... D'A apparently has them, but not popular enuff to stock in stores. And it is just possible D'A got a mile of 0.0095 wire long ago, and when it's used-up they won't think it worthwhile to pay for a custom-run.

GHS makes .0005" jumps from .008 through about .00135, and after that their plains are in .001" jumps.  I only stock the 0.0005 jumps for regular customers that I know will sell, because as you say, most people just don't care/notice.  D'Addario is similar.  What that means is that, with a few exceptions, every string brand on the market CAN get those sizes, because with very few exceptions, every string brand on the market is buying their strings from either GHS or D'Addario.  (Except for Ernie Ball - who make fine strings of their own, and also supply a fair portion of the market - I would advise against buying from anyone who didn't get their strings from GHS or D'Addario, by the way.  Too much inconsistency, and a MUCH higher rate of bad strings.)  However, as I said, they aren't very popular, so most brands aren't going to bother.  Personally, I buy very standard sets from D'Addario, and they are just fine by me.


Gabriel

[sault]

Without getting too technical, I've always seen it as pretty straightforward...

Heavier gauges = more tension = better sustain = better tone = harder to bend = needs more finger strength

I felt a huge difference going from 9's to 10's, and a still significant difference going up to 11's. Makes a big difference when you tune down, 11's at Drop D 1/2 step down feel about the same that 10's do on standard.


Different tensions on different strings don't seem to make a big deal to me - make sure your truss rod is adjusted properly, your guitar properly set up, and you shouldn't have any problems. The caveat is with floating trems, ie Floyd Rose etc. For those you want the thinnest strings you can get away with, usually.

While I've studied a lot of the tech side of music and guitar, I haven't studied guitar strings much beyond my immediate experience - cheap strings suck, I don't like Ernie Balls, thicker strings are usually better, and it turns out that I hate changing strings, so my guitars all have Elixirs on 'em, I wash my hands before I play, I wipe 'em off when I'm done, use plenty of string lube both before and after (GHS Fast fret), etc.

(taking care of your strings makes a real difference... in the last band I was in, my strings would last maybe - maybe! - two months at a go. just taking care of them made 'em last twice as long, and getting coated strings more than doubled that)


Sault

[edvard]

Good advice that...
Since I don't gig out at all, and probably won't until the kid is out on his own, I figure a good set oughta last me through quite a few basement four-track sessions.

Looking around a bit, I've found a few things...
Apparently, I'm not alone in my musings:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-org-workbench/9986-mind-riots-guide-daddario-string-tension.html

D'Addario has a VERY handy and EXHAUSTIVE (er, exhausting... take a look) PDF chart of string tensions for their strings:
http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

And a nice cross-platform software based on D'Addario's chart:
http://humanoid.ahmala.fi/software/

[Mike Burgundy]

every string brand on the market CAN get those sizes, because with very few exceptions, every string brand on the market is buying their strings from either GHS or D'Addario.  (Except for Ernie Ball - who make fine strings of their own, and also supply a fair portion of the market - I would advise against buying from anyone who didn't get their strings from GHS or D'Addario, by the way.

Interesting. I wonder if there is a list (or someone knows) of what brand acquires their strings where, and if they simply repackage, do some kind if post-production treatment, or have their own spec fabricated from for example D'A. I can imagine the brands won't like that to be too much public knowledge, but I'd be really interested in that data.

Also interesting to hear more people not favour EB. Every player I know personally doesn't seem to either, but they still are huge.
On Elixirs:
While I've always favoured D'A XL's for guitar, on bass the strings would tarnish and die way too fast, if I forgot to clean them religiously. After a couple of hours of playing, 5 minutes to clean seemed like such a hill to climb So I switched to Elixirs, and have loved them for years. Apparently there's something changed in the production process, my last two sets stripped off the coating all along the string after just a month. I decided to switch back to D'A since the El's lifespan wasn't ecenomical any more, and was amazed at the "new-found" liveliness and balance of my bass. I'm now back to D'A, and clean them well every single time.  Just have to find a source for taper-wound low-B's. Anyone know If D'A carry those standard in a set? I could only find the loose strings.

(edit: spelling)

[edvard]

From what I gather, most of the major manufacturers like D'Addario, Ernie Ball, DR, LaBella, Dean Markley, etc. do make their own strings, but the raw materials are supplied by major wire suppliers, of which there are fairly few.

Check out Mapes as an example, I think these guys supply GHS:
http://www.mapeswire.com/specialtywire.html

[EATyourGuitar]

zacharyguitars.com  - this guy likes to rant but he is also very knowledgable about string tension. you can read about it on his site. he died recently so please don't flame the corpse. we know he rants.

I found his research to be very useful but I found his conclusions to be %50 right. I learned that most string sets 5 years ago had crazy high tension on the A string. thats why you can go into a guitar store and every guitar starts going out of tune on the A string first. I worked in a store. thats exactly how it went down. the reason I believe is that the A string has the most tension and therefor bears %90 of the load when the neck is moving front to back due to constant changes in temperature and humidity. its the same as if you tune your guitar and start pulling up on the A string with your fist until it goes flat. or if you pulled on the headstock and neck in a way that would tighten the strings, that would make the A string go sharp more than the other strings. string manufacturers did steal some of zachary's ideas. your strings are now a little less weird in a standard set thanks to this guy.

[zombiwoof]

Back in the 50's, string gauges from different company's sets were are over the place, there was no standardization for guitar string sets.  When Ernie Ball came out with the Super Slinkies (9-42) in the 60's, and later the other gauges they offer (10-46, etc.), the other companies over time fell in line with the gauges that EB had established, so most companies now offer the same gauged sets as each other.  I've done a lot of experimenting over the years, I found that with the ".010" sets I liked the bottom wound strings fine, but for my bending style the plain strings were too heavy.   If I used the ".009" sets, I found the whole set a little too loose for me.   Finally they came out with "hybrid" sets, like the 9-46 sets, I used those for a while, but I still found the .009 and .011 strings a little too loose for me, so I finally reached the conclusion that I like the regular .026, .036, and .046 on the bottom, and for the plain strings I like .010, .012, and .016 (on Fenders I use a .0095 instead of the .010 for the first string).   So I just buy the regular .010-.046 or .009-.046 sets, and keep a supply of singles in .0095, .010, .012, and .016 around to substitute in the regular-gauged set.  No company makes the exact gauged set I prefer, so I find that it's necessary to to the route of substituting strings in the regular sets to get what I want.   Many other players do the same thing.

That company that lets you make up your own sets is a good idea, unfortunately I'm one of those people that also has been through all the different strings on the market and have my own preference for the type and brand of strings I like, so I'm stuck with doing the substitution thing.  I like the good old round core, pure nickel wound strings on most of my guitars, but I do use round core nickel-plated steel wound strings on some other guitars, but always round core.  Recently, my favorites for pure nickel round core are Pyramid Classics and the Dean Markley Jimi Hendrix Pure Nickel round core strings.  Unfortunately, Markley for some reason has discontinued the Hendrix line of strings, which really pissed me off, so I use either the expensive Pyramids or the DR Pure Blues for round-core pure nickel strings, and I use the Dean Markley Vintage Reissue strings for the guitars that I use round-core NPN strings on.  I get the sets that are as close as possible to the gauges I like, and substitute plain strings to get the gauges I want.

Some people are happy with the stock guages that are out there, in fact some people don't even care which brand they use, unfortunately I have distinct preferences which has made me have to go this route to get the type and gauge of strings I like.

Sorry for the long post, but this string thing has been something that I've obsessed over for years, it's too bad that almost all the companies have adopted the Ernie Ball gauges as standard now, because none of them feel exactly right to me.

Al

[Paul Marossy]

Without getting too technical, I've always seen it as pretty straightforward...

Heavier gauges = more tension = better sustain = better tone = harder to bend = needs more finger strength

I felt a huge difference going from 9's to 10's

EXACTLY why I like the D'Addario XL120+ .0095 set - it's in between. Has more sustain than 9s and is easier to bend than 10s. And hey, someone told me that Santana also likes .0095 sets, so there's at least one other weirdo like me out there.