Need a NEW.... old reliable.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

So.... I am running low on my PnP Blue stock and I am looking for a suitable replacement. I have grown quite fond of "Old Blue" but the money is tight these days and I need to find something just as much, if not more relaible!

Any recommendations? Please be specific (i.e. Don't just say "Magazine paper..." Give brands, names, etc.)

Thanks 

[therecordingart]

So.... I am running low on my PnP Blue stock and I am looking for a suitable replacement. I have grown quite fond of "Old Blue" but the money is tight these days and I need to find something just as much, if not more relaible!

Any recommendations? Please be specific (i.e. Don't just say "Magazine paper..." Give brands, names, etc.)

Thanks  

I'd like to find something myself. In a pinch I use pages of Musician's Friend or Parts Express catalogs and use a GBC laminator instead of an iron to apply the heat. The problem with glossy paper vs PnP is that there isn't any way to get around a pitted transfer which means a pitted etch. I've never had a PCB that didn't work due to pinhole sized pits, but it still doesn't seem like good practice to use obviously compromised PCBs.

I'm watching this thread.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

So far, I have only heard of two ways to do transfers.

1) PnP Blue
2) Magazine/Photo/Glossy paper.

I had not heard of the "pitting" problem with #2 though... 

[therecordingart]

So far, I have only heard of two ways to do transfers.

1) PnP Blue
2) Magazine/Photo/Glossy paper.

I had not heard of the "pitting" problem with #2 though... 

There is also Pulsar TTS paper, but that stuff sucked terribly. I really liked the reliability of using presensitized copper clad, but it's a little more involved than toner transfer.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

There is also Pulsar TTS paper, but that stuff sucked terribly. I really liked the reliability of using presensitized copper clad, but it's a little more involved than toner transfer.

I've read about Pulsar but IIRC, it has a fairly large start-up cost.

I have never tried the photo etch process for the same reasons. I could be wrong but, PnP blue was the cheapest at the time.

[therecordingart]

There is also Pulsar TTS paper, but that stuff sucked terribly. I really liked the reliability of using presensitized copper clad, but it's a little more involved than toner transfer.

I've read about Pulsar but IIRC, it has a fairly large start-up cost.

I have never tried the photo etch process for the same reasons. I could be wrong but, PnP blue was the cheapest at the time.

You're right. Presensitized copper clad costs more, you need to buy developer, and the layout needs to be printed on a transparency which are expensive. It makes sense when you need to periodically fab small runs of the same layout, but don't necessarily need someone to manufacture them.

[trixdropd]

There is also Pulsar TTS paper, but that stuff sucked terribly. I really liked the reliability of using presensitized copper clad, but it's a little more involved than toner transfer.

I've read about Pulsar but IIRC, it has a fairly large start-up cost.

I have never tried the photo etch process for the same reasons. I could be wrong but, PnP blue was the cheapest at the time.

You're right. Presensitized copper clad costs more, you need to buy developer, and the layout needs to be printed on a transparency which are expensive. It makes sense when you need to periodically fab small runs of the same layout, but don't necessarily need someone to manufacture them.

I use the pulsar paper and I have had no issues. As far as high setup costs, not really. You don't have to buy the whole kit.

[Zipslack]

I just use any glossy magazine paper.  You can get away with regular copier paper, but you need to run it through and overprint 2-3 times to get a good transfer.  If you have pitting, try using a fine-tip Sharpie permanent marker to fill in the pits and gaps.  The Sharpie will resist just fine if you're using Ferric Chloride (unless you're using the sponge etch method).

[.Mike]

I have been having very good luck with inkjet photo paper from the Dollar Tree. It is $1 for 8 sheets, and I cut them to 4.25 x 5.5, yielding 32 sheets for a buck. I wish I could give you a brand, but all it says is "Premium Photo Paper." It comes in a bright yellow plastic package, is distributed by "Greenbrier International, Inc," and is of course made in China.

I would check out your local dollar stores, as this is the only one I found locally that carried photo paper.

I have been meaning to try the dextrin / silicon-impregnated paper method. I have even made the dextrin. I just haven't had a chance to give it a shot. Basically, you make a water-soluble dextrin glue from corn starch, and apply that to a piece of paper you spray with silicon. You then print on the dextrin side, and do your toner transfer. Once transferred, you put it in water, where the dextin glue dissolves completely, the paper floats off, and you are left with 100% toner transfer. There are several tutorials out there if you search.

Mike

[artifus]

haven't etched a pcb for many a year and way back when t'was done with letreset transfers and sharpies! and i find stripboard far too cheap and easy  for the odd project these daze.

kids today are spoilt with this new fangled computer technology malarky! doubt my zx spectrum 48k's thermal printer... etc, etc [/grumpy old man blog]

anyway, have recently got hold of some ferric chloride for alu box etching experiments, so far all by hand (see transfer/sharpie reference above) due to lack of access to laser printers and reliable photocopiers, and wondered if any folk here had any luck with or experience in refilling inkjet cartridges with diy resist for iron on toner transfer. worth investigating further?

[Mark Hammer]

This comes up pretty regularly, but since I'm sitting here waiting for a phone call, I'll write it out all over again.

The resolution of the resulting etch will vary with the granularity of the medium used.  PnP has the highest resolution of the various toner-transfer media, because the acetate sheet is not fibre based.  Good glossy magazine papercan be second best in this regard.  It IS fibre-based, so the emulsion that makes the page shiny (and holds the toner) does not break off as cleanly as PnP, but does break off cleaner that photo paper because the size of the fibres would appear to be generally smaller.  Photo paper is a little more ragged than shiny magazine stick, but that will also depend on the type of photo paper you buy.  Generally, the shinier the paper, the smaller the particulate size, and the cleaner it peels from the backing paper, and the crisper the etch.

Cleanliness and sharpness of the etch, quite apart from depending on the state of the copper surface itself, as well as the state of the etchant, depends more heavily than you'd think on the user's ability to recognize when the pattern is fully transferred.  The thinner the sheet, the easier it is to tell.  So PnP, being the thinnest of the lot, and also a monochromatic surface, is relatively easy to see when the pattern has been fully transferred.  The acetate tends to sag around the edges of the parts with toner on them.  That's one of the reasons why PnP etches tend to come out better on a more consistent basis - people can easily tell what they're doing.

Magazine stock is only a little bit thicker, and is fairly pliable, but of course the nature of whatever image is on it will play a role in whether you can clearly see the same outline of the toner pattern as you would with PnP.  Photo paper is the toughest of the lot.  I find I'm usually "done" when I can see the outline of the full pattern as if it was a charcoal "rubbing" on coarse drawing paper.  Whether the aluminum bottom on your iron wears off like the one on mine, however, is another story.  Either way, it's smart to print duplicates and triplicates of whatever pattern you intend to etch, just in case the first attempt at transferring ends up incomplete.  Certainly allow a little more time for the toner to cool down with photo paper than with PnP.

It is also fair to say that the narrower and more closely-spaced the traces and pads, the more you will want to use the finest-grained method available to you.  There is PLENTY that will work out just fine with cheap photo paper, though.  My rule of thumb is that if there is any SMT on the board, steee-raight to PnP.  If there are traces running between IC pads, or more than two traces running between the rows of IC pads, also straight to PnP.  Apart from that, photo paper is often good enough, even if the traces won't have razor sharp edges.

One of these days, though, I have to buy up some old National Geographics or some other mag with comparable paper stock, and try it out.

[StereoKills]

If you have purchased from DigiKey, they sound out a monthly tech magazine. High quality glossy pages that have been working great for the last 10 boards or so. Large enough so one magazine will last me the rest of my life.

[spargo]

Always gotten near-perfect etches printing with a laser printer @ 1200DPI (max) on Digital Photography Magazine paper.   Just keep the paper and everything else free of fingerprints, etc. during the process and iron the heck out of it.  You can do touch ups with a sharpie.