What is it about original Univibes that makes them sound so good?

[skiraly017]

I recently picked up an original non-working Univibe from another forum member and got it up and running. I then got together with a friend and we gathered up some Univibe clones from some very well respected builders/companies for a shootout. After a couple of hours of A/B'ing we both came to the same conclusion...the original was the best sounding one out of the bunch, there was just something it had (dare I say "mojo"?) that the others didn't. So what is it about the original that set it apart from the newer production ones? Let's assume that everyone followed the same schematic and didn't make any drastic sound altering changes, so then why the difference in sound/tone? Several builders claim the secret lies within the photocells (and they all claim to be using the "correct" ones) but is that the reason? Not trolling or looking to start a flame fest, I'm genuinely curious if anyone has the answer. Thanks.

[R.G.]

The secret is that the originals vary - a lot - just like the clones do. I've run into a number of original univibes over the years. Some are good, some are - well, less good.

Hearing one good one of anything, even a mystically good one, does not mean that the others, even the ones before and after it in the assembly line, are great too.

[skiraly017]

The secret is that the originals vary - a lot - just like the clones do. I've run into a number of original univibes over the years. Some are good, some are - well, less good.

Hearing one good one of anything, even a mystically good one, does not mean that the others, even the ones before and after it in the assembly line, are great too.

So was this more "luck of the draw" than anything?

[Sanguinicus]

Sounds like the same sort of thing with original Big Muffs.

[joegagan]

i have had occasion to play a few examples of the clones: fulltone (3), dave fox (2), sweetsound (1 -RIP bob my friend).

never got try an original but george blekas owns a working one and has repaired a number of  bob sweet's.

it is like RG said, of all the examples i tried, they all vary. some sound incredible, others are just good. even two of the same brand.

[Jay]

Friend of mine is lucky enough to have two originals - and they don't sound the same as each other.  One is good, but the other sounds just like Jimi.

I built a Neovibe, using Small Bear photocells, and A/B'd it with my friends pair.  Mine sounds like his Jimi one.  He has very fussy musical bat ears but thinks it sounds the same.

I followed the Neovibe plans exactly, plus - I selected 4 similar cells out of dozen (ohmeter, light bulb), I mounted them the same as the originals (flat to the board facing up into a shiny metal light diffuser) and I did RG's wet/dry balance tuning trick.

Only other one I've played was an early Dunlop clone which was very muddy, with a weak effect (not much notch depth I think).

[DougH]

Of the "not good" ones has anyone tried tweaking the trimpot? Also, can someone characterize "sound good"?

When I bought my cool cat vibe, the one I was trying in the box did not sound as "good" (i.e. did not have as deep of a phase and wobble) as the one on their demo pedalboard. So I swapped it out and took home the demo unit. I just assumed it was a trimpot tweaking issue, but figured why go to the trouble of having to disassemble it, etc, when I could just take the other one. It reminded me very much of the shallow sound I got out of the phase 90 clone I built until I dialed in the trimpot.

[Mark Hammer]

I suspect part of it is the marriage of light source dynamics and LDR properties.  How LDRs behave is more than a function of what their min and max resistance are.  It's how they get to those points that matters, and what's driving them there is a light source (that has a bit of lag built into it) that is fed by an LFO that anticipates that light source property.  All of these have tolerances, not to mention unit-to-unit variation on the positioning of light source and LDRs (bend the leads of one and the sound changes).

That's a whole lot to depend on, though, isn't it?

[Gordo]

I was lucky enough to find a Univibe, with foot controller, new in the box sitting in a pile of junk in a music store back in 1977. I paid $75 for it. I played it till '82 when it was stolen 

There was just something magic about it. I have a Voodoo Microvibe that comes pretty close but doesn't nail it.  I've never finished my Forumvibe (kinda famous for getting a lot of projects to about 98% and then putting them aside). If you listen to either "Sing Child Sing" by Heart or "Bridge of Sighs" by Robin Trower you get a nice feel for what a good Vibe sounds like. To me it makes the guitar sound a little "sinister", expecially a strat thru a Marshall. I think, as has been mentioned above, that it's a random thing.  Mine was noisy (lot of hiss) so maybe that had something to do with it. Plus all those "mojo" (pronounced "crappy") old parts had a lot to do with variations.

[DougH]

I suspect part of it is the marriage of light source dynamics and LDR properties. 

Sure. It's like a V-I curve on a diode. Just wondering if anyone tried the obvious (tweaking the trim) before putting it in the "not good" pile, like people used to do with fuzz faces until we started understanding what made them "good".

[zombiwoof]

I would love to have an original Univibe, but my MojoVibe does the job for me fine.  I get great vibe sounds that get me in that zone of the original.  Maybe it isn't exactly like the original, but it is more compact, designed for guitar use (the original was really aimed at organ players, to replace the bulky Leslie systems), and makes me happy with what I hear.  I don't think an audience is going to hear one of the good clones and complain that it doesn't sound like a "real" Univibe.  I think some of these modern builders have done a fine job in replicating that sound in a smaller format, and I would be hesitant to take out an expensive original into clubs where it possibly could be stolen.  For me, it's "close enough".  Just my feelings on the subject, it doesn't really answer your question.

I'll add that Bob Sweet was a great guy, I think we all miss him.

Al

[R.G.]

I wish I had an original Univibe. I'd sell it to an "originality chaser" and pocket the money.

I've built Neovibes which sound as good as any real Univibe I've ever heard.

And as bad, too. 

[joegagan]

to clarify my post, when i say certain ones sounded incredible, i mean they were lush, watery, fat. sounded more alive. even a 'good' sounding one is still really pretty sounding. but the fat ones were more intense and more lush.

[DougH]

I would love to have an original Univibe, but my MojoVibe does the job for me fine.  I get great vibe sounds that get me in that zone of the original.  Maybe it isn't exactly like the original, but it is more compact, designed for guitar use (the original was really aimed at organ players, to replace the bulky Leslie systems), and makes me happy with what I hear.  I don't think an audience is going to hear one of the good clones and complain that it doesn't sound like a "real" Univibe.  I think some of these modern builders have done a fine job in replicating that sound in a smaller format, and I would be hesitant to take out an expensive original into clubs where it possibly could be stolen.  For me, it's "close enough".  Just my feelings on the subject, it doesn't really answer your question.

I'll add that Bob Sweet was a great guy, I think we all miss him.

Al

I suspect a lot of this "good/bad" stuff only comes up when you are A/B-ing a couple in a room next to each other. Otherwise I'd guess most won't notice much difference given: a) It's actually the univibe circuit, not a "roto-vibe" or other phaser concoction and b) the trimmer is tuned to get the best possible sound out of it. That's my story and I'm sticking with it until shown otherwise, anyway... My $50 cool-cat does Jimi/Robin/name-your-favorite-vibe-hero all day long- I've compared it to recordings etc and it passes the test with flying colors.

(the original was really aimed at organ players, to replace the bulky Leslie systems)

I just finished building a Leslie for my guitar (and organ) so I guess I've come full circle...

[Gordo]

+1 on the Cool Cat.  I did play one and thought it was squarely in the ball park. As was mentioned, by the time it gets to an audience nobody would tell the difference. Sadly I suspect most of our effects tweaking is more for OUR entertainment than is noticeable out front. I could have picked up the CC for next to nothing but figured the Voodoo Labs one was nicer (only because I already owned it...) and if I get another vibe I'll NEVER get my Forumvibe finished...

At the end of the day, if I still had the Univibe I'd use the Voodoo anyway. Univibe on stage is like leaving your wallet on stage. Remember the good old days when you could trust people? Me neither.

[jayp5150]

I just finished building a Leslie for my guitar (and organ) so I guess I've come full circle...

Not to derail, but I'd love to see that. I started one years ago, and never finished it, and have had minimal success finding information on what I actually need for a motor.

I was trying to build basically the bottom half, from scratch, using a 12".

Not trying to hijack, I just got excited lol.

Edit to stay on topic: the originals sound the way they do because all the electros are filled with unicorn tears.

In all seriousness, I just picked up a Cool Cat as well, and I agree that it is a close-enough version for me... but I still want to tweak it lol.

[Keppy]

I'm no Univibe expert, but I've seen one explanation elsewhere that's missing from this thread: The original Univibes are older. Some components are prone to drift out of spec with time/usage/heat, meaning that even the original units do not necessarily sound like they once did. This is not necessarily good, but at least may account for some of the differences.

Again, I'm no expert. Does anyone else care to elaborate on this?

[DougH]

I just finished building a Leslie for my guitar (and organ) so I guess I've come full circle...

Not to derail, but I'd love to see that. I started one years ago, and never finished it, and have had minimal success finding information on what I actually need for a motor.

I was trying to build basically the bottom half, from scratch, using a 12".

Not trying to hijack, I just got excited lol.

I'll start another thread with some pics and stuff (probably next week). But in a nutshell, I bought a rotor/motor/pulley/cable unit that was used in a home console organ from a guy on CL. I just finished off the box, added ports, etc.

[R.G.]

Good point. We think whiskey and wine taste better just because they're old. Why not univibes?

Eletrolytic caps are the things most likely to age. They have a known decay mechanism. Resistors and caps, much less so. Transistors have an external aging mechanism. If the base-emitter region is broken backwards, even once, it degrades the gain and the noise of the device. This is often why old effects get noisy - their inputs have been subjected to many abuses. It's also possible for this to happen with power cycling when there is more than a few volts on an emitter capacitor. Power-down leaves the base at ground and the emitter cap discharging through the emitter/base, taking a little bite every time. I don't know of any aging effects on LDRs. Light bulbs sure age.

But it's all knowable. Find a good one, tear it down to its parts and measure.

[Mark Hammer]

I think there is most assuredly some merit to the component-aging argument.

At the same time, I think there is also something to the notion that the spectral dips that vibes provide are relatively shallow.  And as such, their audibility, and impact, will depend on where they are and how important to the resulting sound that range of frequencies is, given the guitar, the tone of the speakers, and how you play.  Easy to imagine a vibe that sounds absolutely killer on a clean tube amp using a 15" JBL, and sounds like 3-week old crap from the back of the fridge on a solid-state amp using a pair of strident-sounding 10's.

FWIW, I whipped up a "vibe" by adapting a Ross phaser with the usual set of staggered cap values, and a few tweaks to the LFO.  Could not keep my hands off the damn thing.  Sounded wonderful and compellingly musical.  Never had the same luck since.  And in that case, we're not dealing with LDRs, bulbs, aging caps, or any of that stuff.