Ludwig Phase II Clone Tech Notes

[R.G.]

In case you were wondering, I only put the two rightmost pots on a different level from the others so I could fit in the "formant trajectories" heading, along with the thick silvery dividing line, since I like shiny metal boxes

Actually, I thought that was done for functional/human factors reasons. I like that they're set off differently from the other pots because they're least likely to be used once you get them like you like them. Silly me - I have the engineer's common failing that making it work comes first, then getting the appearance right. Doh! 

[Keppy]

In case you were wondering, I only put the two rightmost pots on a different level from the others so I could fit in the "formant trajectories" heading, along with the thick silvery dividing line, since I like shiny metal boxes

Actually, I thought that was done for functional/human factors reasons. I like that they're set off differently from the other pots because they're least likely to be used once you get them like you like them. Silly me - I have the engineer's common failing that making it work comes first, then getting the appearance right. Doh! 

Yeah, it turned out to be nice for other reasons, but the origin of that placement was purely cosmetic, so I could fit in all the elements I wanted.

[Keppy]

Alright, I checked the file against the wiring diagram. There are a few problems, as follows:

1) Wiper of the Bypass stomp needs a connection to output jack.

2) The Fuzz stomp isn't right. I think you might have confused it with the Fuzz/Voice Fuzz toggle since you have it connected to filter pad 19 (and since they're both labeled "Fuzz Sw" on the wiring diagram). All the connections for the Fuzz stomp go the the filter board, not the console board. I see that you have the connections for the Fuzz stomp (Filter pads 7, 16 & 17) going to the console board, but they don't all come out to the stomp on your layout. Without the traces it's hard to tell what happened there.

3) The Animation stomp is backwards. Grounding the switch turns it off.

That's all I can tell without the traces. Personally, though, I would find it less confusing to have the rocker connections labeled "Toe" and "Heel" rather than "CW" and "CCW." That, and labeling the stomps as such.


I have some questions about spacing, as well.

1) Does the position of the console board leave room for the jacks?
2) Did you account for the height of a TO-220 in the Q6 spot? I didn't spot it in the layout.


This was a great idea, R.G. I spent hours just wiring up the LEDs for this thing, and hours more on the other off-board stuff. While I'm kinda proud that I actually got it to work, all that wiring is not a winning recipe for a successful repeatable build. You've made this much more easily achievable, and my hat's off to you!

[Mr Bill]

Just a quick post, guys -  Hold off on any Tropical fish cap changes.. my failures were unique and also involved some %^&*pit error on my part on the analysis (covered in the other thread).  That being said, I'm going back to the beginning of this thread and read it through!

[digi2t]

Just a quick post, guys -  Hold off on any Tropical fish cap changes.. my failures were unique and also involved some %^&*pit error on my part on the analysis (covered in the other thread).  That being said, I'm going back to the beginning of this thread and read it through!

Thanks for the heads up Bill. If you have any questions pertaining to the original units (not already covered here), just hollar. Between Jimi and myself, we've got 3 units that we can gander for info. That being said, I'm pretty sure this thread should cover everything pretty extensively.

Cheers,
Dino

[R.G.]

1) Wiper of the Bypass stomp needs a connection to output jack.

Gotcha.

2) The Fuzz stomp isn't right. I think you might have confused it with the Fuzz/Voice Fuzz toggle since you have it connected to filter pad 19 (and since they're both labeled "Fuzz Sw" on the wiring diagram). All the connections for the Fuzz stomp go the the filter board, not the console board. I see that you have the connections for the Fuzz stomp (Filter pads 7, 16 & 17) going to the console board, but they don't all come out to the stomp on your layout. Without the traces it's hard to tell what happened there.

Ah. I'll go back and look at that. Check your mail in a little while.

3) The Animation stomp is backwards. Grounding the switch turns it off.

Doh!

That's all I can tell without the traces. Personally, though, I would find it less confusing to have the rocker connections labeled "Toe" and "Heel" rather than "CW" and "CCW." That, and labeling the stomps as such.

Good one. However, I'm not sure which is toe and which is heel. I'll go re-read the voltage listings here and see if I can ferret it out. I think the filters go up in frequency as the control voltage goes down. Also, the standard wah rack-and-pinion swaps clockwise and counterclockwise rotation on the pot. Toe down is counterclockwise, and vice versa.

Thanks for the extra set of eyes.

I have some questions about spacing, as well.
1) Does the position of the console board leave room for the jacks?

Yes. They fit entirely underneath it. Or can. I'll send a sketch. However, that does leave the space for the filter board kind of crowded. It may have to fit between jacks in the middle of the box, with all the jacks toward the ends longways to leave room for it.

2) Did you account for the height of a TO-220 in the Q6 spot? I didn't spot it in the layout.

THAT's what I kept forgetting to do - change Q6 to a TO-220. I have now made Q6 a TO-220 and laid it down on the top of the PCB. I also put in extra pads for a TO-92 in case a builder likes that original/vintage smoke smell.

This was a great idea, R.G. I spent hours just wiring up the LEDs for this thing, and hours more on the other off-board stuff. While I'm kinda proud that I actually got it to work, all that wiring is not a winning recipe for a successful repeatable build. You've made this much more easily achievable, and my hat's off to you!

Well, my hat is still in my hand.  You've been a major help with this. First, coping with the what - what, four? - versions you got before you got to etch, then finding the base reversal, then inspiring this. I had always kind of thought that a control board PCB would be good, but just left it alone because the existing console board was done. I took one look at your wiring and realized that you have a lot of manual wiring skills, but that most people would not.

This thing is definitely not your two-jacks-three-knobs-and-a-stomp-switch pedal.

[digi2t]

Good one. However, I'm not sure which is toe and which is heel. I'll go re-read the voltage listings here and see if I can ferret it out. I think the filters go up in frequency as the control voltage goes down. Also, the standard wah rack-and-pinion swaps clockwise and counterclockwise rotation on the pot. Toe down is counterclockwise, and vice versa.

FWIW, in the original units, the pot is on the leftside of the rack. Toe down = CCW, and Heel down = CW. If I remember correctly, voltage rises as heel goes down.

[Keppy]

Good one. However, I'm not sure which is toe and which is heel.

Toe=ground (pin 22 or the bottom connection on your pot diagram)

I took one look at your wiring and realized that you have a lot of manual wiring skills, but that most people would not.

This thing is definitely not your two-jacks-three-knobs-and-a-stomp-switch pedal.

Thanks, but I'd say I have more persistence than skill. This was my first build five months ago (a gift for my wife. Don't make fun!):

Two jacks, NO knobs, and a switch. And it just BARELY worked!

Needless to say, I found the challenge of the Phase II quite stimulating. And I STILL don't know what possessed me to get involved!

Thanks for helping us noobs, R.G.!

[pinkjimiphoton]

nice, kep...


ya got involved because the ...ummmm...moon was right?

yah, that's it.

used mine live at a huge shindig saturday ....last thing in line before my amp. it totally kicked ass, and made people wonder when the freakin' aliens had landed.


me and dino got the vocalizer running...check that thread when ya can...no pII, but seriously cool pedal!

[R.G.]

In case there are people thinking about doing toner transfers of the Ludwig:

You may want to give it a day or so. In working with Keppy, I re-did the layouts so that they fit a 1590D box, integrating more than half of the wiring onto a board with all the controls, and a better-fitting and easier to etch and drill filter board. I'll have it up soon.

[pinkjimiphoton]

nice, rg, can't wait to see it. i'm gonna have to have someone make me a few boards.

[digi2t]

Ditto for me on the boards. If someone can crack 2 off for me, when the final version is settled upon, I would be happy to purchase them. Just PM me on the price please.

I mean, I'm a real vero freak (I LOOOOOOOVVVVVVEEEEEE vero, it's like Sudoku for me!), but I'm 47 years old, and I don't think I'll live long enough to figure out a vero for this sucker, let alone one that fits into a 1590D!

Thanks guys!

[theehman]

Ditto for me on the boards. If someone can crack 2 off for me, when the final version is settled upon, I would be happy to purchase them. Just PM me on the price please.

Same here.  I would be interested in 4 boards.

[R.G.]

It's worth noting at this point that the first layout is better for short-run commercial production, because it's optimized for being small and cheap to get printed. The second version is better for toner transfer methods because it integrates more of the wiring onto the PCBs and is easier to wire up, but more than twice as big and hence at least twice as expensive per board for commercial production in any quantity.

The circuits are the same, except that I've made a couple of changes to the circuit (oops - "mods" sounds more like "vintage, but even kewler!" while "changes to the circuit" is equal to desecrating holy ground ) to make it function with available switches and other parts. The changes can be patched around on the existing board set by selective population to give the original circuit.

The simple solution for commercial board would cost $50 - $150 per board set for the bigger ones in units quantities. I did those larger ones knowing that they'd be primarily useful for toner transfer because of the size, and did line width and spacing to make toner transfer easier. The commercially made prices don't get reasonable until you get to quantities of 100 or more.

The raw board stock needed for the toner for the larger set will be at least 6" x 7". There are about 750 holes in either version.

From long experience, I know that I have to say this: just to make sure it's understood, permission is given under copyright law for a limited number of copies to be made for personal use and not for sale. I regularly register copyright of all the contents of geofex. That means that the contents of geofex qualify for automatic damages under the DMCA. If any reader wants to make one or a few for themselves, fine. If you want to make and sell them, I'll listen to licensing offers. I don't expect any of those, as this thing is so big and complicated that it's out on the edge of what one would do. I understand fully why Ludwig didn't get any further into musical electronics with this as their first attempt. 

[pinkjimiphoton]

ummm...i understand that you need to protect yourself and your intelectual property, but i thought the whole idea was to make this free for the masses to do what they want with it,
so....i don't get why you're copyrighting the boards? or am i missing something?

i thought you didn't want to get involved in this other than for fun, and now we're talking liscensing? not bitching, r.g., just confused...as it seems that me and dino and keppy did a lot of work on this too, and it most likely never would have happened without our direct input and labor.

not to be a buzzkill, but it seems to me the whole point was to make this information available to anyone, and quite frankly, i don't see a problem with selling a few to finance the building expenses involved...it's not gonna be a cheap or easy build.

not trying to get crazy, but i've had a couple people ask me about building them one, i personally don't wanna get commercial and be crankin' 'em out by any means, but then i don't wanna get sued either if i do make a few to sell commercially.

so...i'm confused. i understand you protecting your rights on this...and i believe by doing so, you're preventing others from using our intelectual properties without our blessings..

but...does this mean if i build steve miller one like he asked, i'm gonna get in trouble?

cuz life is too short, and i'm way too poor for legal hassles and expense!!

my main interest is having one i don't mind having beaten on on the road (a clone) but i'd also like to get my ancient tele back, too...which requires building yet another one... yikes...


or is this only the "new improved" smaller "mod" board you're talking about?  sorry to ask all these dumb newb questions, and sorry especially if i seem off my feed, just trying to gain and glean a little understanding my friend.

namaste

[R.G.]

ummm...i understand that you need to protect yourself and your intelectual property, but i thought the whole idea was to make this free for the masses to do what they want with it, so....i don't get why you're copyrighting the boards? or am i missing something?

No, you have it right. I explicitly allow anyone to make the boards for themselves - and under the "limited" thing, for friends. What I'm trying to limit is someone saying "OK, these guys did all the work for me, I'll open up my new reissue Ludwig Phase II clone shop now. Kewl." I've been around enough to know that this *will* happen unless it's stopped in some way. If you notice, the average time between some new member saying "I've never built anything, don't know how to solder or read schematics" and then starting to refer to themselves in the first person plural in announcing their new business is about two weeks. 

It is free for the masses. Just not free for commercial exploitation.

i thought you didn't want to get involved in this other than for fun, and now we're talking liscensing? not bitching, r.g., just confused...as it seems that me and dino and keppy did a lot of work on this too, and it most likely never would have happened without our direct input and labor.

Yes, you did. And the word "licensing" has a whole lot hidden behind it. Notice that I didn't say that any proposal would be accepted. Or who would be involved in the terms of any such licensing - such as perhaps you, Dino, Keppy, etc.

not to be a buzzkill, but it seems to me the whole point was to make this information available to anyone, and quite frankly, i don't see a problem with selling a few to finance the building expenses involved...it's not gonna be a cheap or easy build.

Neither do I. Especially for you. And especially if you, Dino, or Keppy had an interest in that. I don't.

not trying to get crazy, but i've had a couple people ask me about building them one, i personally don't wanna get commercial and be crankin' 'em out by any means, but then i don't wanna get sued either if i do make a few to sell commercially.

Trust me. You wouldn't get sued by me. That's not the issue. I don't have in mind enabling some lurker to go set up his business, though.

so...i'm confused. i understand you protecting your rights on this...and i believe by doing so, you're preventing others from using our intelectual properties without our blessings..

That is correct.

but...does this mean if i build steve miller one like he asked, i'm gonna get in trouble?
cuz life is too short, and i'm way too poor for legal hassles and expense!!

No. Licensing terms to you are different from terms to others... 

No, those are relevant questions. From sad experience, I know if I do not actively limit what any reader on the internet can do, there will be little Ludwig Clone shops springing up. That's different from the masses that want to build themselves one, and different from any private arrangements the people who did the work may make on this. You're in no danger of being sued, nor is any DIYer who wants to build themself one or a "limited number".

[digi2t]

I'm kool with R.G.. Like he says, free for the masses is fine, as long as the masses are doing it for their personal use. It's the lurker, who 2 weeks later has got "all you can eat" PCB's  for sale on EBay, that we should nip in the bud. Yes, we did do a lot of work, some more than others, but work nonetheless. It would really piss me off to see copies of our work show up somewhere in mass production, and not see some fruit for our labors. We should be able to control things in that respect. Like the fact that I wouldn't mind if a large batch of boards were made by Aron, to sell in his store to help him out with the site. But, if next week "someyoungguy" sets up shop, and starts selling boards cop'ed from our work, then I say nuke the sucker.

I'm with R.G. on this one. Protect the little guy, screw Big PCB.

So I guess I'll have to rephasre my previous question then; Can anyone be so kind as to make me 2 PCB's for my own personal use? I'm just not equiped to do so myself. I would really appreciate it, and would be willing to reimburse that person for their time, materials, and shipping. Which is only fair, of course.

[pinkjimiphoton]

thanks for the explanation and the understanding rg...i am with ya 100000000000000000000000000000000%!!!!!!!!!

i just didn't understand, i'm a third - rate mostly white blues rock musician from the willimantic river delta, not a businessman.

keep it free is the way to be...i respect your position, and frankly, now that i understand  it, honored by it. thank you my friend!

blessings

jimi

[digi2t]

Great news guys! I finally got around to fixing the animation rate problem on the second unit. The rate range was reduced to a very small section of the slider, it would go from slow to fast, all within about a 1/2 inch of travel. I figured it either had to be C1, C2, or quite possibly Q2. I was fairly sure it wasn't Q2, because it was flipping after all. I swapped out C1, no impovement. But, C2 was the magic bullet. I guess it was toast, and wasn't charging enough (or at all) to give Q2 full flips throughout the range.

I proudly announce both units in perfect health now!

Going to see a local machinist this week, get a price on having some knobs copied. These babies are gonna look almost mint when I'm done.

[pinkjimiphoton]

these look good for handle knobs, dino, i think...not perfect, but i think they may work.

great news, props on getting it up and running!! now ya can psychedelic out in stereo!




http://www.westfloridacomponents.com/HW189PE04/Black+Plastic+Round+Clamping+Industrial+Knob.html