FY-2 Germanium build...

[glops]

and what was your Q2 collector voltage?

Yikes, 3 miserable volts!  Definitely going to add an q2 bias pot, guess a 25k will do...

It doesn't matter as long as you like it!   ...but it might be cool for you to hear the full range from 3v to 7v before you decide

If you remember my earlier posts, I initially thought it sounded best at 2.2 - 2.4v, but that's because I didn't try the full range yet. After that, I just thought because of the 4.5v "standard" that it'd be the best there...so I hit 4.5v and it was terrible. Then, I increased further and it was the best at 6.7v

Through the full range from 3 - 7v playing chords are good, but the middle  range (4 -5.5 ) is a little harsher. The single notes are much better for me at 6v+, the middle is still harsh and it softens a little where you are 3v...but if you go further down to 2v, it will gate just like a FF.

Took out my gain pot and subbed in a 6.8k plus 20k pot wired as a variable resistor.  Sounds better now.  It's a great fuzz.  Now off to perf a Roland double beat.  If you haven't tried that one, it is truly fantastic. I'm using lowish (hfe 100's) RCA germs in it and it's pretty awesome, gonna socket.  I have a feeling getting in the 200 hfe range for this one will make this fuzz the end all for me for awhile. Very huge!

[tubelectron]

@ Lucifer Trips :

That's great ! Weren't you surprised at that sound since it's a Fuzz Face variant with one "big" change....and it's killer that you can get such a loud & nasty sound with lowish hfe ge's.

I would be curious to know what your voltage readings are for Q2.

...and I don't know if you saw that I used this FY-2 structure to alter an actual Fuzz Face in the same manner:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92714.0

thanx for reporting the results!

"great" is the word - I found it even better sounding than my Ventures 2000 Pound Bee FuzzRite 1590A. I was searching a good fuzz circuit, able to switch from trebly/nasty to fat/thick, to enter into my Melodium box (the white brother of the Atomisor), and I think that it will be this one, even if I am working on a "Muff-Fuzzed" overdrive version...

For sure I will let you know ASAP all the measurements posted on a new schematic (which show very slight corrections), for interpretation.

I saw and recorded your job about FY-2ing the FF, I'll study it more accurately further +++.

A+!

[tubelectron]

Hi Lucifer Trips,

Here is the updated shematic of my FY-2 Ge trial :



The values are measured with a Fluke FL87-V DMM vs. GND (+9V).
The 100K resistor in the TONE section is intended to correct the volume in the LO position vs. the HI (original) position.
The 22K resistor across the 47K LOG VOLUME pot is intended to have a correct FX volume level in medium setting vs. the dry volume (FX unengaged).

A very good sounding fuzz, indeed...

A+!

[EATyourGuitar]

I tried this 100pf on BC of the only transistor in the rangemaster with 100nf input cap. the 100nf input makes fuzz and the 100pf BC makes more fuzz. I have a theory that the 100pf BC wont do anything if you dont have any high frequency harmonics or fuzz in the signal to begin with. I'm using a germanium pnp Hfe 92. its a bitchin 1 transistor fuzz pedal. just wanted to say thanks for the tip and maybe try this 100pf trick on some other fuzz circuits.

That's great...you actually turned a Rangemaster into a fuzz with a BC cap and a larger input cap?

The 100pf on BC is usually used for the opposite. It tames the circuit, gets rid of oscillations, sizzle, fizzle, hiss, unwanted high end, etc...

I'll remember that for my next Rangemaster

I ripped it out of the breadboard cause It didn't have enough sustain for what I like. you might like it though. very natural dynamics. I had a 10nf on the out cap.

[LucifersTrip]

Hi Lucifer Trips,

Here is the updated shematic of my FY-2 Ge trial :

The values are measured with a Fluke FL87-V DMM vs. GND (+9V).
The 100K resistor in the TONE section is intended to correct the volume in the LO position vs. the HI (original) position.
The 22K resistor across the 47K LOG VOLUME pot is intended to have a correct FX volume level in medium setting vs. the dry volume (FX unengaged).

A very good sounding fuzz, indeed...

A+!

Excellent...It's good to have another variation on record.

It looks like the biggest differences are your choices of the Q1B > Q2E resistor (which you've gone out of the stock 1K - 51K range), and you decided on Q2C voltage ~ 4.5V

Before you decided on 4.5v, did you try single notes and chords at 2.5V, 4.5v, 6.5v ?

thanx for posting the schematic

[tubelectron]

Hi Lucifer Trips,

When it comes to transistors, my knowledge faints... Unless like with tubes, where I have the means to be more rational - at least - at the start of a project.

It looks like the biggest differences are your choices of the Q1B > Q2E resistor (which you've gone out of the stock 1K - 51K range),

I apologize, I don't see neatly what do you mean there (remember that my native language is French...) 

Before you decided on 4.5v, did you try single notes and chords at 2.5V, 4.5v, 6.5v ?

In fact, I decided... Nothing based on measurements ! I plugged the unit (ES-335, Boogie MKIIA clean, any pickups, chords, bends and so on...) and made trails with decade boxes to see how the circuit behaves, took notes, with some target on mind, indeed :

1 - I didn't wanted that fuzz to "gate" in any way, simply because while experimenting, I found it unpleasant sounding.
2 - I wanted no fuzz control, and a high fuzz level.
3 - That fuzz must be thick, regular, and with a smooth regularly vanishing decay (no desaturation).
4 - I wanted also a good sustain.
5 - I wanted balanced 2 tone facility : "trebly" and "thick".

So here's what I have done, in summary :

- having the maximum fuzz implied for me to have the feedback resistor maxxed, but avoiding any gating - in the range 10k - 1M, 100K was right.
- RE of Q1 is 1K. I shorted it, the tone changed to more gritty, but not nicer and not real difference in sustain. Even with variying RC Q1 (22K, 100K).
- similar conclusion with RE Q2, as RE Q1. These 2 stock values are right.
- increasing RC (100K) Q1 leaves a gating effect, decreasing (22K) gives less fuzz density.
- RC Q2 was chosen in the range 4K7 to 100K and the best sounding value is 12K, not 10K nor 15K (you've put an adjustable here, it's not surprising) to follow the criterias mentioned above.
- the TONE circuit was determined only by ear, HI-LO balancing level included. Hi is the stock position. LO reinstates bass.

It's rather empirical... But the compromise found works, at least for me !

A+!

[tubelectron]

Hi - that's done !

Here's the MELODIUM FUZZ, based on the modified FY-2 that I posted the schematic before :






Thanks Lucifer Trips et. all. to have started that Ge FY-2 topic, otherwise I think that the original schematic I had would be sleeping again... An I would missed the occasion to build a very good fuzz.

So come on, let's fuzz again !

A+!

[jrod]

Hey guys

Check out how similar this circuit from Russia is to the germ FY-2 (bottom right).

The first transistor is biased differently, it's 18V, and there is an added BMP style tone stack, but the basic circuit is similar. Oh, and no feedback resistor.

Anyway just thought this was kind of cool and ya'll would find it interesting.

By the way tubelectron, I love your build. It looks great!

[tubelectron]

Thanks jrod !

Yes, indeed - on the book picture, we recognize a FF-like at bottom left, and a kind of Ge FY-2 Si-ized or a simili-Foxey Lady early style... Curious... Why not ?

A+!

[Mark Hammer]

T'emploi des "affichages" drôles.  Très "steampunk"! 

"Démarrage", for the non-French speaking among you, would be akin to "launch", "ignition".  When you put the key into the ignition of a car you "démarre" it.

[LucifersTrip]

It looks like the biggest differences are your choices of the Q1B > Q2E resistor (which you've gone out of the stock 1K - 51K range),

I apologize, I don't see neatly what do you mean there (remember that my native language is French...) 

I was just remarking that you used a 100K resistor between  Q1 base and Q2 emitter when the original schematic has a range of 1K - 51K with the Fuzz pot.  I was surprised since I got the best fuzz at around 30K and when I increased to 50K and higher the fuzz was not nearly as good.

Before you decided on 4.5v, did you try single notes and chords at 2.5V, 4.5v, 6.5v ?

In fact, I decided... Nothing based on measurements ! I plugged the unit (ES-335, Boogie MKIIA clean, any pickups, chords, bends and so on...) and made trails with decade boxes to see how the circuit behaves, took notes, with some target on mind, indeed.

So here's what I have done, in summary :

- having the maximum fuzz implied for me to have the feedback resistor maxxed, but avoiding any gating - in the range 10k - 1M, 100K was right.
- RE of Q1 is 1K. I shorted it, the tone changed to more gritty, but not nicer and not real difference in sustain. Even with variying RC Q1 (22K, 100K).
- similar conclusion with RE Q2, as RE Q1. These 2 stock values are right.
- increasing RC (100K) Q1 leaves a gating effect, decreasing (22K) gives less fuzz density.
- RC Q2 was chosen in the range 4K7 to 100K and the best sounding value is 12K, not 10K nor 15K (you've put an adjustable here, it's not surprising) to follow the criterias mentioned above.
- the TONE circuit was determined only by ear, HI-LO balancing level included. Hi is the stock position. LO reinstates bass.

It's rather empirical... But the compromise found works, at least for me !

A+!

That sounds very cool. I also try to shoot for a similar criteria as your #1-5 above. Though, I see our biggest difference is your preference for thicker fuzz and I usually choose a buzzing fuzz...though, as you wrote, I did make RC Q2 adjustable so I have both.

So, you tuned it to your liking by ear and came up with 12K, which is almost precisely 4.5v on Q2 collector!!  If I made RC Q2 12K with my configuration, I would probably wind up with ~ 4 - 5v on the Q2 collector as you have, since for me 8v is 5K and 2.5v is 25K.

But the 22K R across the 47K vol pot should make it much more trebly than mine...that's pretty much the same as a 15K pot?  How about a 20K vol pot with 60K resistor across? Wouldn't the sweep be a little better...

thanx again for the report

[tubelectron]

@Mark Hammer,

T'emploi des "affichages" drôles.  Très "steampunk"! 

"Démarrage", for the non-French speaking among you, would be akin to "launch", "ignition".  When you put the key into the ignition of a car you "démarre" it.

Good, Mark - many French native people are unable to write the French like you do (even counting with the incorrect spelling here : Tu emploies)...

Yes, "Démarrage" is to be interpreted exactly as you mean, as this label was on the electrical cabinet of a 8-in-line diesel engine from the "Compagnie des Moteurs CONTINENTAL - Avenue Lacassagne - Lyon 8ème - France", which was intended to power (in emergency case) a cable-car of the 60's, long-forgotten and competely dismantled now... Very unfortunately, I could not snag the CONTINENTAL label, which was a small nice bronze die-cast plate. It would have been very nice on a pedal. I was young, it was in 1978 or so...

@Lucifer Trips,

That sounds very cool. I also try to shoot for a similar criteria as your #1-5 above. Though, I see our biggest difference is your preference for thicker fuzz and I usually choose a buzzing fuzz...though, as you wrote, I did make RC Q2 adjustable so I have both.

Buzzing fuzz... means DZZZZZ ? OK, I think I see - my version here then is more GRRRRR... I you see what I mean too ! Just for the occasion and if you have the time to, have a look to my The MinuteMan Fuzz topic (if it's not already done) and have a try : it's a simple unit and any lo-Hfe Si Q would work, even if the 2N1613 is great... And let me know your advice on "thickness" or "buzzing" then ! I have sometimes problems with vocabulary related to distortion - for example the difference between "fizz" and "buzz"... S'pas ?

But the 22K R across the 47K vol pot should make it much more trebly than mine...that's pretty much the same as a 15K pot?  How about a 20K vol pot with 60K resistor across? Wouldn't the sweep be a little better...

Yes, probably, but not so much I think - I added the 22K resistor only for a personal trick : having the correct average output level with the average position of the pot, nothing more...
But yes, it's very trebly, piercing fuzz like that, and the LO position makes it very different, in a kind of FF way, without the mud and fart - and this just at the stomp of a FSW.

A+!

[Mark Hammer]

@Mark Hammer,

T'emploi des "affichages" drôles.  Très "steampunk"! 

"Démarrage", for the non-French speaking among you, would be akin to "launch", "ignition".  When you put the key into the ignition of a car you "démarre" it.

Good, Mark - many French native people are unable to write the French like you do (even counting with the incorrect spelling here : Tu emploies)...

Chalice!! (Merde! pour nos cousins continentales)  Vous avez raison.  C'est pourquoi je ne vais pas reussir mon éxamen de deuxième langue.  Malheureusement, mon fils a perdu mon Bescherelle bien-aimé. 

Merçi bien de vos compliments.  I am a beneficiary of governmental formation linguistique.  I used to engage in more conversation with my Francophone colleagues, but of late have been reduced to writing apologetic notes to angry people on behalf of my manager, whose English is poor, let alone his French.  I have to "vouvoye" a lot, and have become quite diplomatic in my phrasing. 

There are probably many surplus places that have old equipment with similar kinds of labels that can be used on pedals to add some professional-looking "mystery" to them.

[tubelectron]

Excellent, Mark ! Looking at your profile, I saw that you were from Ottawa, Canada, not so far from the Quebec region when French remains spoken... Tout s'explique !

There are probably many surplus places that have old equipment with similar kinds of labels that can be used on pedals to add some professional-looking "mystery" to them.

to add  some professional-looking "mystery" to them : exactly - I would even add "history" (like the "DEMARRAGE" plate from this abandoned cable-car). And it turned to be a good way for me to achieve the decorum of my stomboxes, by the way : no need to invoke uselessly the God of Paint, only mechanical skillness and certainity.

A+!

[LucifersTrip]

@Lucifer Trips,

That sounds very cool. I also try to shoot for a similar criteria as your #1-5 above. Though, I see our biggest difference is your preference for thicker fuzz and I usually choose a buzzing fuzz...though, as you wrote, I did make RC Q2 adjustable so I have both.

Buzzing fuzz... means DZZZZZ ? OK, I think I see - my version here then is more GRRRRR... I you see what I mean too ! Just for the occasion and if you have the time to, have a look to my The MinuteMan Fuzz topic (if it's not already done) and have a try : it's a simple unit and any lo-Hfe Si Q would work, even if the 2N1613 is great... And let me know your advice on "thickness" or "buzzing" then ! I have sometimes problems with vocabulary related to distortion - for example the difference between "fizz" and "buzz"... S'pas ?

Everybody's definition is different for buzz, fizz, grrr, etc....it's is too hard to communicate without sound....but the buzzing fuzz I was referring to for this is closer to a fat 60's bumblebee...not a thick, saturated fuzz...and not metallic and clangy (which I got at 4.5v)

Funny, I did breadboard your MinuteMan Fuzz a short time after you posted, but I got a dull, muddy sound. I looked at the schematic very quickly (and forgot what you wrote) and in my mind I just assumed since this thread was germanium that your MinuteMan was also germanium...and you used 2N1613, but in my mind I was thinking the classic 2N2613.

Anyway, after I checked the voltages and realized they were way off, I looked at the schematic more carefully and saw my mistake.

I'll switch the transistors to silicon soon and let you know...

[tubelectron]

Ah, yes, LuciferTrips,

The Minuteman Fuzz is an all-around design for all-around transistors - a Ge conversion is certainly doable, with some tweaking - a good idea to dig with AC127 (NPN Ge) or AC128 (PNP Ge, reverting the polarity of the supply) or any other Ge available... Notably russian ones : have you any experience about soviet transistors, by the way ?

Nonetheless, thanks for your trial details in the Minuteman Fuzz post +++

A+!

[LucifersTrip]

Ah, yes, LuciferTrips,

The Minuteman Fuzz is an all-around design for all-around transistors - a Ge conversion is certainly doable, with some tweaking - a good idea to dig with AC127 (NPN Ge) or AC128 (PNP Ge, reverting the polarity of the supply) or any other Ge available... Notably russian ones : have you any experience about soviet transistors, by the way ?

yes, the Russian I've used have very low leakage. They do not have as soft or mushy a sound as US and Japanese ones...so not the best for a warm sounding Fuzz Face, but still can sound very good. I find they are better used in a Fuzz Rite variant or a booster like the Rangemaster.

Nonetheless, thanks for your trial details in the Minuteman Fuzz post +++

A+!

It's fun!  I always like trying new variations of fuzz

thanx

[tubelectron]

yes, the Russian I've used have very low leakage. They do not have as soft or mushy a sound as US and Japanese ones...so not the best for a warm sounding Fuzz Face, but still can sound very good. I find they are better used in a Fuzz Rite variant or a booster like the Rangemaster.

Ah, OK - what were the russian model refs you used ? Most of my Ge are NOS European (AC125,6,7,8, AC132, 141,180,87,88...ASY27...) and so I was thinking about buying some CCCP models.

A+!

[LucifersTrip]

yes, the Russian I've used have very low leakage. They do not have as soft or mushy a sound as US and Japanese ones...so not the best for a warm sounding Fuzz Face, but still can sound very good. I find they are better used in a Fuzz Rite variant or a booster like the Rangemaster.

Ah, OK - what were the russian model refs you used ? Most of my Ge are NOS European (AC125,6,7,8, AC132, 141,180,87,88...ASY27...) and so I was thinking about buying some CCCP models.

A+!

I've recently used P416B & 1T308B. Both hfe's ~ 50-90. If you want to do a FF/variant with them, you can still get a warm sound if only used for Q1 with Jap, US, Euro for Q2