Enclosure toner transfer failures - What could be wrong?

[Kearns892]

@ Beo - 100 is medium, 150 is fine, and 220 is very fine the other way around would just equate to the coarsest grit used. Some people suggest using a coarse grit to help the toner key, but most people seem to recommend as flat as possible. Is that what you are suggesting?

@ Mike - I really think that is just lighting, I put a desk lamp light facing down to the side of it (full on was too bright)  and I think the shadowing is due to that light position. Here is an image of the enclosure with even lighting, let me know if this looks better (if I'm still messing up how else should I go about sanding this?) I can assure you though, no finger prints or oil on this   After sanding handled on the sides only and with latex gloves.

[Kearns892]

Keep the tips coming! Each attempt is definitely better than the last. Here are the used toner transfer pages on my last three attempts in order. Each one more toner is transferred than the last hooray progress! 



But seriously thanks a lot for the help so far. Here is the box of my latest attempt, I may just be delirious, but do you think I might be able to touch this up enough to etch? Either way, I have two of these to do, so the other suggestions will be tested! For this one I took Rick's advice and heated on low for 4 minutes then on max for 8. I also borrowed a nicer iron hoping it will get hotter than my cheapo one. Unfortunately since there are quite a few variables I changed it's hard to tell what exactly led to the improvement (longer pre-heat, cleaner, change of iron). Maybe when I get this down I can go back and try changing things one variable at a time in a more scientific manner to help other people out.

[Beo]

I think I got too much sun today... sorry for the confusion on the grit size. Here's some more suggestions:

If you have big sections of toner where you don't want etching, either punch/cut out holes, or leave blank spot to begin with on your transfer paper. Toner releases gases when it heats up and that can prevent good adherence if the gasses don't have anywhere to go. After your transfer, you fill in the blank spots with nail polish. Masking tape works too. In fact, its good to go over your transferred toner with nail polish or strips of masking tape wherever possible, to minimize pitting.

[Beo]

More suggestions... don't use photopaper. Thinner magazine paper may work better, that's what I use. Try different kinds of magazine paper. I actually find the dryer less glossy stuff works better. Also, check your printer settings to try and maximize the toner settings - increase contrast and turn off half-tones / toner saver, etc. Also, a newer toner cartridge works better than an old one. And some toners will just never work, like my Brother printer.

From your photos, you don't have anywhere near enough toner transferred, not even close. If you've sanded flat and cleaned the surface well, something else is not right, and no amount of re-attempts is going to get a good result. You need to change paper, or toner, and get a lot more heat. You'll know when your close as you'll get a lot more toner transferred, but even then you may not be satisfied if there are any spots with poor transfer. You can touch up with nail polish (don't bother with resist markers), but it's hard to fix up fine detail and lettering that way.

I've had some success clamping the enclosure face down on the paper with C clamps and heating the enclosure from the inside with a heat gun. The heat gun gets the enclosure super hot. Then I would release the C clamps, flip the enclosure over, and go over the surface with the flat iron, working all the surface with the iron tip. When you put the enclosure in water to cool down, you want crazy hissing and sputtering. If you don't get that, you never got your enclosure hot enough.

[.Mike]

That looks like some fairly thick paper.

When I do my transfers-- for both PCBs or enclosures-- I haven't been able to just pull the paper off. The dollar store photo paper that I use is of such low quality that it usually tears. When it doesn't tear, it rips toner off with it. I have to soak it in water to soften the paper, and then rub it with my finger to get it to come off. The pulp produced is very white, though-- no toner comes off with it.

Definitely try some new papers. I have had really good luck with paper from cheap catalogs.

I have been meaning to try the paper from the inserts in those coupon envelops that come in the mail every month (in many places in the US). The paper is very thin and cheap (dripping water on it causes it to dissolve), semi-glossy, usually blank on one side, the size of a business envelope, and free. I just haven't had a chance to try it.

Mike

[mr clack]

Another variable is toner - my cheapo HP printer works a lot better than photocopier toner - I think it may be something to do with the temperature it fuses at.

I used Photo paper quite successfully - one was so good that it worked just like press 'n' peel but I cant find it anymore!!

If you don't mind splashing out I recommend Press'n'Peel actually - it works so much better in solid areas.

Of course the main problem with pedals is the heat is transfered away very quickly compared to PCB's because there is so much more metal!!

[Kearns892]

Thanks for tips. I have tried various magazine papers before with PCBs but I have never had as a good a transfer as with photopaper. Like you mentioned Mike, when I do PCBs the photopaper is usually stuck to the board and I have to use water to gently rub it off. That's something I am not getting with enclosures which is why I keep coming back to not enough heat or if enclosures do better with a different kind of paper than PCBs.

I'll start looking for magazine paper for my next trials, and I'll bust out my small HP laser that I've also had success with before (the one I have been using seems to be depositing enough toner, but is now displaying "Toner Low" . Either way, I'm changing it up.

What should I be looking for magazine paper wise?

If I still have no success, I will take my photopaper to a print shop and see if I can get non-HP toner on it, I highly doubt I would be able to get anything printed on old magazine paper as it could jam the machines.

[Strange]

These have been mentioned but I think the critical areas you need to concentrate on are the following:

Preparation is imperitive. This is the most important factor for a successful etch hands down. Sand the enclosure until it is perfectly flat. You will not get a solid etch unless you make sure you make the aluminium perfectly flat and without any pits. I mean perfectly flat. Use an orbital sander with 100, 220 and 320 grit sandpaper. Move into finer grits and wet sand with these. If you see lots of scratches and/or pits keep going. It should be like glass when you are finished. After sanding, clean the surface with acetone and do not touch it - use latex gloves if you have to. Did I mention the surface needs to be perfectly smooth? SMOOTH!

I would strongly suggest tossing the paper and using press and peel. It may be more expensive but it works much better IMHO. Really though, it only costs a dollar a sheet. For the increased chance of success it is well worth the extra (minor) cost. In my experience, PNP adheres much better and it only takes a few minutes. I use the setting just below the steam setting on my iron. I rotate through leaving the iron stationary and going over the areas with the tip of the iron to really work the questionable spots to make sure it has adhered. I would also suggest coating as much of the 'protected' surface area (ie the area you do not want etched) with nail polish. This will prevent unwanted etching and pitting.

Good luck!

[Kearns892]

Alright, trying magazine paper with a different printer with toner that has been successfully used for PCB transfers. My current theory is that the thick photopaper in combination with the heatsink effects of an aluminum enclosure are preventing heat transfer. Hopefully thinner paper will work better.

Right now I have three transfers made

National Geographic - recommended on many other threads, thickest and glossiest paper in test
Guitar Player Magazine - also seen recommended, thinner than National Geo and not as glossy
Popular Mechanics - thinnest and least glossy paper of the bunch. Haven't seen it recommended, but I had it lying around. 

Cleaning enclosure for next attempt. As usual, I will report back shortly...

[Strange]

Also: PNP will remove the guess work out of which paper works or what variables you have to consider with each attempt.

It is $1 per sheet!

[Kearns892]

I don't see where you are getting this $1 a page figure Strange. The cheapest I see is $1.05 but then you have to buy 100 pages 

I have a great method down for PCBs. It took a lot of trial and error, but now I get my paper for about 10 cents a page and I only have to spend $1 at a time. If I could get PnP for $1 a sheet in maybe a $10 quantity, it might be worth it for enclosures only, but I would much rather put in the time to fine tune a method with materials at hand as I know so many here have already done.

Do you have a better source for PnP I just don't know about?

[Strange]

I buy mine locally. Even at $2 a sheet from Small Bear is worth it to me. No experimentation required. At $2 per sheet it works out to about 6 enclosures and a 2-6 PCBs per sheet for me or roughly $0.33 - $0.50 per pedal (PCB and Etched Enclosure).

My point is that with the PnP you know what you are into from the get-go. If you are not getting good transfers with PnP you can focus on the other variables (technique, heat, etc). I find that the random magazine paper, heat transfer paper, etc works quite easily for PCBs but not so much for etching enclosures.

By all means, experiment away. If you can find something on the cheap that works well I am all for it!

[Kearns892]

National Geographic attempt doesn't look much different than the last few. Lines look a little less crisp and paper still did not adhere to the enclosure but came right up...

I'm starting to see Lacky's point about all this, but I also know Batman once said the night is darkest just before the dawn, so I will press on - I may be getting close...

Still plenty of tests out there, I just hate that I am not even seeing much variability.



For the curious I did 4 minutes low heat followed by 11 minutes max heat. The paper still has the image intact, looks like less transferred off.

I know when I first started doing PCBs, my main issue was over heating the baords and found best results were had in under 2 minutes and going over actually lifted toner from the board. I'm not sure that is happening here though.

[Kearns892]

I buy mine locally.

Might I ask where at? If I could find some locally in reasonably small quantities I would love to give it a go today.

[boogietone]

Probably been mentioned, but I use the backing sheet of Avery clear labels. The right combo of heat, time, cooling, and rinse seems to do the trick. Tried a variety of other papers and this was the best for me. I have not yet but will try PnP at some point. The biggest problem with the Avery paper is that you have to peel off all of the labels first. For PCBs, it pretty much comes off of the paper on its own. I am using HP brand toner in an HP 2605 color laser.

[robmdall]

Having never etched an enclosure, this may be more of another question then an answer to Kearns issue.

How important is cooling the enclosure after heating the transfer?  After briefly skimming the messages, I didn't see much mention of this step. It seems to me that cooling would be an important part of the process.

[Kearns892]

@Boogietone - I think I just threw away of sticker backing yesterday... time to dig through the trash...

@robmdall - This could potentially be part of the issue, I haven't been letting mine cool and instead just use a metal tool to pull the corner up. I've never noticed a difference between pulling them off hot as opposed to letting them cool with PCBs and always assumed this step was to protect fingers ! I will give it a try on my  next test.

Have to head out for a bit, on my way back I will stop by an office supply store and try to get them to print for me with different toner.

[boogietone]

No hard data on this for enclosures, but I cooling would affect the toner. I think that you definitely want the toner cooled at least below its melting point before paper removal.

[Strange]

I buy mine locally.

Might I ask where at? If I could find some locally in reasonably small quantities I would love to give it a go today.

It is a little mom and pop shop. The name escapes me - 'something' Hobbies - but next time I am down town I will make sure to note it.

How important is cooling the enclosure after heating the transfer?

I just cool mine off under the tap with a little cold water. In five to ten seconds and the PNP Blue usually starts to peel off on its own.

[Kearns892]

Hmmm... latest try with guitar player magazine paper looks about the same as national geo, thin in most places... I followed Frequencycentral's advice on heating on min for 4 minutes, but that didnt cause any adhesion (probably due to iron temp differences), so I upped mine to synthetics and did 4 more minutes as a preheat then full on for 8 more applying lots of pressure.

Since its so similar to the last I won't bother with pics for this one.

Maybe etch master Slade himself could chime in here and see if he could help diagnose my problem