New mxr Flanger 117 volume drop

[trixdropd]

I have a friend with a new reissue MXR 117 Flanger. The volume drop when the effect is enabled. Can I adjust a trimpot, or do I need to replace a few components?

Thanks

[trixdropd]

Mark, do can you chime in?

[trixdropd]

Bump! Anybody know the definitive answer?

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I am 90% sure that the trim pots have nothing to do with the output level. If I were you, I WOULD NOT mess with the trimmers.

This would be a good question for Dave (oldschoolanalog) or even Fender3D possibly.

Even so, aren't the new M-117Rs built with SMD components anyway? Would it be worth the risk? How bad is the volume drop? Could it be compensated for with a booster?

Throwing up some pictures would not hurt either. I don't think there is a lot of info about the M-117Rs.

Food for thought 

[Fender3D]

...This would be a good question for Dave (oldschoolanalog) or even Fender3D possibly...

I don't know what's the schematic of reissues, I just read some "guesses" on the net about it, and it looks like it is more or less the good old 117 just with a different BBD (3204).
That said and unconfirmed, you would check whether the volume drop occours with different setups too:
different amp input impedances might affect the pedal out signal negatively (this always happens when mixing "old" and "new" technologies... when I had to choose between Ibanez TS9 and MXR D+, I took the latter 'cause it was better when in bypass mode  on my plexy)

BTW:
+1 @ Throwing up some pictures
+10 @ DO NOT MESS WITH THE TRIMMERS (expecially when you don't know what they're for...) 

[oldschoolanalog]

Dave's not here...
Oh! There he is! 
I have one of these reissue Dunlop 117R's. First, I checked it out and really do not perceive any volume drop when engaged. At points in the sweep it may seem like a volume drop due to harmonic cancellations but in other points of the sweep it may seem like a volume increase due to harmonic reinforcement. It does not have as extreme a "character" as its Rochester, NY predecessors. It is a lot quieter than the original however. I think this unit has companding but can't be sure w/out disassembling it.  I believe; though I have been known to be wrong on many occasions; it uses a BL3207 or similar. To take this 117R apart you have to first remove the Allen screws on the back plate, remove the knobs, the nuts holding on the pots & switch (which appear to be board mounted), and disassemble the whole damn thing to get a look at the component side. Which is obviously SMD save for a few components that are obviously through hole (you can see them on the copper side of the PCB when you remove the back plate). I got as far as removing the back plate; saw SMD and said "f**k this". Sorry, it's just more than my lazy a$$ wants to do, and I want to sell this thing ASAP also. If you have more patience & higher threshold for aggravation than me, I implore you to disassemble yours & post as many high res. macro photos as possible. Trust me, you don't want to take this apart more than once. Just don't reassemble it until some verdict is reached.
And please listen to Fender3D & Govmnt_Lacky (and me); DO NOT TOUCH THE TRIMMERS!
If a simple booster can be squeezed in there the folks here can help guide you. That would be totally dependent on seeing what's in there first.
Pictures first. The more, the clearer, the better.
Just go slow & be patient.

[trixdropd]

I'll see what I can do on the pics. I don't have the pedal in my possession yet. Thanks A lot fellas.

[Joe Hart]

I also noticed a volume drop, but I decided that it was due to phase issues (like Dave said). But I do find it a little annoying. Also, I feel that the tone coloration (maybe?) makes the guitar fade into the mix a little. I have wondered about a fix for this.
-Joe Hart

[oldschoolanalog]

@ Joe Hart: Do you feel like having a go with opening it up and taking some photos? I'm sure that would be greatly appreciated. There is little to no documentation on this unit. Maybe we can get the ball rolling here?
Also, I'm sure a "fix" for the perceived volume drop can be done easily. Just a matter of how/where and is it really worth doing.
That would be a personal call for the owners of these to make however.
BTW; the 117R I own is one of the earlier versions of the Dunlop reissue. ~10 years old IIRC. Maybe this is just an issue w/the newer ones?

[Joe Hart]

@ Joe Hart: Do you feel like having a go with opening it up and taking some photos? I'm sure that would be greatly appreciated. There is little to no documentation on this unit. Maybe we can get the ball rolling here?
Also, I'm sure a "fix" for the perceived volume drop can be done easily. Just a matter of how/where and is it really worth doing.
That would be a personal call for the owners of these to make however.
BTW; the 117R I own is one of the earlier versions of the Dunlop reissue. ~10 years old IIRC. Maybe this is just an issue w/the newer ones?

Sure. Why not? I just spent the week cleaning our apartment because our last tenant vacated and it was pretty bad and new tenants are moving in tomorrow. And I just got a call to do a bass fill-in gig (it's tomorrow and I don't know where, when, or what songs!! I'm waiting for the email), but I will try to get to it in the next few days.

I've tried taking close up pictures before and they tend to be a little blurry (and I tried different lighting, backing away and using the camera's zoom, zooming out and moving in closer...). Any ideas?
-Joe Hart

[oldschoolanalog]

^ Oh man. Full plate!
No gig location, time or setlist?   Serious props for your dedication Joe!
I'll wait a few days. Gotta' work the weekend and Monday. Tuesday I'm gonna get me a little, uh, something, something if you catch my drift. At my age you gotta' make that a priority, 'nameen?
If the pix are still needed Wed.; I'll get with it and open mine up for the sake of R&D.
Just when I thought I was out, I get pulled back in! .
There will the requisite little girl (with all respect to little girls, being the Dad of an 11 YO) bitching & whining on my part of course. But hey; "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". If you beat me to it, try the macro setting on your camera. I'll probably go for it anyway. Just need a bit of time to make the time.
This is one stompbox that is screaming for proper documentation.
If anybody reading this has any info, PLEASE share it. I'll send you cookies at Christmas. I promise!

[Joe Hart]

No gig location, time or setlist?   Serious props for your dedication Joe!

This is one stompbox that is screaming for proper documentation.
If anybody reading this has any info, PLEASE share it. I'll send you cookies at Christmas. I promise!

Not really dedication, I just love to play. I'm actually filling in on bass (I mainly play guitar -- and the screaming lead shenanigans at that!), so it's not really my forte. But I'm lucky that I am in a position where I can just do gigs for fun. This particular one actually is paying pretty well, but the band is a very fun group, so the money is kind of secondary.

But I will definitely photograph the Flanger. If not tomorrow, then Monday. I love cookies too much.
-Joe Hart

[Joe Hart]

But I will definitely photograph the Flanger. If not tomorrow, then Monday. I love cookies too much.

Here are the pictures. They are quite big, so here are the links. They came out decent. I have it all apart, so what other pictures does anyone need (or what do I need to read part numbers off of)?

Component side of the board http://www.joehartband.com/MXR117Board01.jpg
Trace side of the board http://www.joehartband.com/MXR117Board02.jpg

Let me know what else anyone needs.
-Joe Hart

[oldschoolanalog]

Thanks Joe! (BTW; how was the bass gig?) Massive thanks for your patience in taking this apart.
Okay. I'm glad to see I got the the companding (SA572 lower left [?]; if my eyes aren't failing completely) assumption correct. Is that a 3204 or 3207? I'm surprised that they were using the "MN" BBD's as late as 2005. 3207 not so much as 3204 (that would be a real shocker!).
I knew this thing was just too quiet compared to other flangers. Now all that has to be done is figure out the bypass style. Looks like there is plenty of room in there for a small 1 tranny booster at the effect output off the switch. Have to suss out the switching scheme first. I will still crack mine open and have a look/see ASAP. If you could in the kindness of your heart( ) identify as many of the other IC's as possible, it would be appreciated. Most of them are labeled (Uxx, etc.) to make it easier.
Thanks again.
PS: PM me for those cookies Joe. I'm a professional Chef and make some kickin' sweets. I'm serious.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Dave,

With my superior zoom skills on my mobile, I think I can say you are partially correct. That is an SA572D chip on the lower left BUT, I do believe that is a 3204 chip on there. Not a 3207.

Zoom is not good enough for the smaller SMD stuff though.

[Scruffie]

Dave,

With my superior zoom skills on my mobile, I think I can say you are partially correct. That is an SA572D chip on the lower left BUT, I do believe that is a 3204 chip on there. Not a 3207.

Zoom is not good enough for the smaller SMD stuff though.

Yup, that's what I got along with the 4013 behind it.

[Joe Hart]

If you could in the kindness of your heart( ) identify as many of the other IC's as possible, it would be appreciated. Most of them are labeled (Uxx, etc.) to make it easier.

Okay.

The one on the lower left (U13) is an SA572D
The one by the two smaller LED's (U14) is an MC33179DG
The one to the right of the stomp switch (U15) is a 33178
The one above the trimmer on the right (U12) is (maybe) a TL072 (hard to read with my 42-year-old eyes even with a magnifying glass!)
The one above the "normal" sized one between the two right-hand pots (U3) is a... I don't know. I'm going to have to see if my wife can read them when she gets home from work! It's tough getting old!

-Joe Hart

[Joe Hart]

Okay. U3 is an F4013BT. I'll keep trying on the others.
-Joe Hart

[Joe Hart]

The "normal" sized one (with no PCB number) is possibly MN380? Or maybe MN3804? MN3904?
-Joe Hart

[oldschoolanalog]

Thanks Joe & Co!
I'm going to open this up tomorrow.
A booster should be a no sweat proposition (famous last words ).
Peace!