Sustain without hash

[Ben N]

There's always the old-fashioned way--with a singing, saturated 100 watt amp moving lots of air in close proximity to your guitar strings!

Of course what you mean is , FEEDBACK !

True, but, as noted by several people above, it can be controlled and used very effectively. Part of this is done through equipment--eliminating stray resonances and microphonics, setting eq and tone controls correctly. Part of it is a function of practice, and part is just putting in the extra time and effort at a sound check to get your positions and levels right.

[Paul Marossy]

Put a "sustainiac" pickup system in your guitar. 

Not sure I want to do that to the Fly Deluxe. 

With the freeze or the distortion sustain you have to hold the pedal each note.  I may as well practice more with the ebow.

CHAD

Oh you've got a Fly Deluxe?! Cool. I have a '95 Deluxe that I got not too long ago. On most guitars a Sustainiac system is not too hard to do, but the Fly is a challenge. It can be done, though. Jason Davis had a "signature Fly" that had one in it. His guitar is pretty much what I would like as far as a dream Fly goes, but I think that will have to stay a pipe dream. There's a thread about the guitar here, but the pictures are gone now: http://forums.parkerguitars.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4211

[Paul Marossy]

The ebow and its ilk drive the string directly and electromagnetically. Standing in front of a cranked up amp drives the strings acoustically from the sheer air vibrations.

For soaring violin like single note stuff, I used to get pretty good results by using a Metal Zone EQ'd nicely and letting the amp feedback in a controlled manner. I used to be able to hit a note and let it sustain as long as I wanted it to by wavering the whammy bar a little bit or giving it some vibrato with my finger. There's a zone you can get into where the feedback is quite controllable (you have to coax it a little bit to get it going) and it acts much like a sustainer pickup, but it's working on a different principle. It's not the kind of sustain that gets crazy and where you can't control the frequency, it just sustains the note you are playing. Used to be something in my bag of tricks, when I was able to use it.

[seedlings]

See, I'm at church playing through an isolation cabinet.  Natural feedback is non-existent.

CHAD

[Paul Marossy]

See, I'm at church playing through an isolation cabinet.  Natural feedback is non-existent.

CHAD

Oh, I feel sorry for you LOL. I hate those things. We had them for a while, but we eventually got rid of them and just mic the amps - it sounds a lot better. We don't play THAT loud anyway. The leadership is happy if the stage level is at 95dB or less. It used to be WAY louder than that before we went to the in-ear monitors.

I don't know how to get that sustain without an eBow or a Sustaniac type system or electroacoustically like I used to do. I HATE compressor/"sustainer" pedals, I don't use them at all in any situation. I control my right hand technique instead and use a volume pedal.

[Gordo]

I'm in the same boat with the iso cabs.  On the other hand it's cool to be able to bring in a big amp and crank it without hurting anybody.  The closest I've come to what you're looking for is an eBow but as you say, there is a learning curve and skipping strings is a bitch.  If you've ever heard anyone that is really good at one of these things it's mind bending.  I haven't tried a sustainiac pickup but would like to.  It's the opposite of an eBow, you have to mute the strings that you don't want to go bonkers.

I've also had reasonable results using a high gain distortion into a cranked Lab Series L5.  The Labs were unique in that they have a compressor on the power amp (for all intensive purposes) so you can crank the volume and set the compressor for the peak level.  Using the iso cab defeats most of the mechanical feedback however and the church I'm playing at also uses in-ear monitors but it's relatively quiet in terms of background hash.

[Paul Marossy]

I haven't tried a sustainiac pickup but would like to.  It's the opposite of an eBow, you have to mute the strings that you don't want to go bonkers.

Before I stuck one in one of my older guitars, I used to think the same thing. But in practice, you have to coax the strings into sustaining when you're doing single note stuff, a little vibrato and it goes. At least it's that way it is with the sensitivity as I have it currently set. But all the strings aren't going if you're not playing something, they stay quiet.

[DougH]

See, I'm at church playing through an isolation cabinet.  Natural feedback is non-existent.

CHAD

I've been playing a lot with my windsor amp that I modified the preamp to an ax84 "uber preamp". Think soldano or 5150, it's that kind of high gain that is developed in the preamp. I can get the "endless sustain" at very low volume levels due to the high amt of gain available. I would think any kind of high gain preamp/pedal could do it for you. The key is to eq, lots of mids can keep it smooth and add the resonance for sustain. The rest is your playing technique.

[Paul Marossy]

I've been playing a lot with my windsor amp that I modified the preamp to an ax84 "uber preamp". Think soldano or 5150, it's that kind of high gain that is developed in the preamp. I can get the "endless sustain" at very low volume levels due to the high amt of gain available. I would think any kind of high gain preamp/pedal could do it for you. The key is to eq, lots of mids can keep it smooth and add the resonance for sustain. The rest is your playing technique.

I can do that with my Zoom 9030 in the studio, with a preset I made from scratch and tweaked over the years. I've never miked one amp for any of the tunes I've slapped out, ever.

[DougH]

Yes, you can get a surprising amt of sustain through just a low power pair of studio monitors with the gain and eq set up right.

[Paul Marossy]

I don't even have studio monitors, just headphones...

[Ben N]

Doug, you did that nice demo with a cheapo piezo transducer just hotglued to your headstock as a sustainer, right? There must be a way to get one of those onto a Fly without excessive butchery.

[Rodgre]

Look into the Pigtronix Philosopher King and then research the EH Attack Decay, which I believe was the seed that spawned the Pigtronix. The Attack Decay has a really over the top way of infinite sustain which the Pigtronix folk have really exploited. It has 2 3080s in it and with those, it clamps down something fierce on your signal for a great singing sustain, but it's kept quiet when you're not playing by its attack and decay functions.

Look into it and you might get some ideas.

I also just remembered that Pigtronix makes the Philosopher's Tone, which I haven't heard, but my guess is that it does exactly what you want without the attack/decay envelope effect of the King (and their original Attack Sustain pedal)

Roger

[Rodgre]

Yup. The Philosopher's Tone is what you want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWPLadlNA0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Paul Marossy]

Yup. The Philosopher's Tone is what you want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWPLadlNA0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That's an interesting pedal. But quite different than what I am used to in the sustain department...

[DougH]

I'm a little confused about what the OP really wants. Hearing an example of the music he wants to play would help.

Sustainer vs gain pedal vs natural vol feedback (he said his vol was restricted with iso cab so I figured that was the issue). Trying not to overthink it but need to hear an example of what he's trying to do.

[seedlings]

I'm a little confused about what the OP really wants. Hearing an example of the music he wants to play would help.

Sustainer vs gain pedal vs natural vol feedback (he said his vol was restricted with iso cab so I figured that was the issue). Trying not to overthink it but need to hear an example of what he's trying to do.

Basically we're very hit and miss on the keys.  We have a few songs that need a pad or cello or something hanging in the background and I'm the texture guy.  What I have now will kind of do that, I use pedal swells with distortion and delay, but often can't make it ring for 4 bars.  I just strike another note and no one but me really knows or cares... was just looking to build something that worked a little better.  If I can- great.  If not- it's not a huge deal.

CHAD

[seedlings]

Yup. The Philosopher's Tone is what you want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWPLadlNA0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

That's nice.  What makes it 'quieter' than other compressors?

CHAD

[Mark Hammer]

That's nice.  What makes it 'quieter' than other compressors?

All it has to do is NOT use a CA3080 and that's half the battle!

I'm guessing there may be an SSM2166 or similar chip in there, because the 2166's downward expansion capabilities make for an extremely quiet compressor.  The challenge for virtually any compressor is not so much decreasing internally generated noise within its circuitry, but rather avoiding the boosting of externally supplied noise.  The downward expansion of the 2166 directs it to effectively ignore any residual hiss when you stop playing, rather than boost the daylights out of it like a "softer passage" as most stompbox compressor designs will.  Makes a huge difference in resulting noise levels.

Again, I do not know this is what the PT does/uses.  I'm simply saying it's a damn good candidate for that because of its demonstrated effectiveness.

[DougH]

I'm a little confused about what the OP really wants. Hearing an example of the music he wants to play would help.

Sustainer vs gain pedal vs natural vol feedback (he said his vol was restricted with iso cab so I figured that was the issue). Trying not to overthink it but need to hear an example of what he's trying to do.

Basically we're very hit and miss on the keys.  We have a few songs that need a pad or cello or something hanging in the background and I'm the texture guy.  What I have now will kind of do that, I use pedal swells with distortion and delay, but often can't make it ring for 4 bars.  I just strike another note and no one but me really knows or cares... was just looking to build something that worked a little better.  If I can- great.  If not- it's not a huge deal.

CHAD

I know you said "no" in your first post, but really, Mr Freeze or pog/hog are really your best friends for that sort of thing. For ambient sustain check out some good reverbs- ehx has one or line6 verbzilla for example.