Germanium or Silicon?

[guitarrob]

Hey guys, I see for certain fuzz design people prefer to use germanium Transistors which can be pricey.
I know you can also use silicon but they would change the sound somewhat.  Do you prefer germanium to Silicon?
A friend has some Russian MP13B's but I am not sure if they would be any good for fuzz box designs.
Do you look for high quality germanium when building Fuzz boxes or just use some silicon and be done with it?

[Electron Tornado]

Ge vs Si seems to be a matter of taste, a matter of cost, a matter of luck (that the GEs aren't leaky), and a matter of experience (with building). If this is a first, or one of the first projects for you, build a fuzz with silicon and it will be easier to have a successful build.

Here's a couple of articles about the fuzz face that are worth reading:

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/fuzzface/fffram.htm

http://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/FuzzFaceFAQ/FFFAQ.htm

Those Russian transistors you mentioned have very low gains, so read what those articles say about transistor gain. Have fun building!

[smallbearelec]

One statement that anyone who has built both will likely agree with is that neither is "better"--what you like is a matter of personal taste. I would add that tweaking the bias correctly benefits silicon as much as germanium, also that adding a little capacitance between Q2 Collector and Base "tames" the silicon version nicely.

http://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BreadboardSiFF/BreadboardSiFF.htm

Get out your breadboard, set the thing up with trimpots in place of resistors and do some experimenting. A good pair of germanium devices costs something, yes. But such devices have never been more easily available or in such variety...treat yourself, and have some fun.

SD

[R.G.]

It's not that simple. Germanium devices have fundamental differences from silicon and work well for certain distortion effects. These effects are imbedded in pedal history and are sounds that people expect. Silicon may or may not come all that close to those specific sounds.

Even more, the circuits the transistors are in have a huge effect, probably more than whether the transistors are germanium or silicon. You cannot make something sound good by simply rubbing germanium transistors on it.

The advertising on pedals is so intense that all the invocation of the "germanium" token has made people think there is some advantage to germanium per se. There's not. It's everything, including the transistor choice.

This is all a preamble explaining why I say this:

Your question does not make technical sense as stated.

It's the logical question for someone who does not understand circuits a lot, but it's much like asking whether Ford or Chevy-based dragsters are faster.

[brett]

Hi
the unstated subtext to this seems to relate to the advantages of germanium transistors in the fuzzface and rangemaster (and rarities like the FZ-1s).
In most other designs, germanium doesn't make a lot of difference (except, perhaps by throwing the bias out and adding noise).
My 2c says that if the original was germanium, stay with that. If the original was old silicon (roughly pre1980) use low hFE silicon. If the original is modern silicon, just use the same device.
The $8-20 for a pair of Germanium gets a lot of attention, but seriously...how many coffees/sodas/beers/burgers do you get for that? 
cheers

[guitarrob]

One statement that anyone who has built both will likely agree with is that neither is "better"--what you like is a matter of personal taste. I would add that tweaking the bias correctly benefits silicon as much as germanium, also that adding a little capacitance between Q2 Collector and Base "tames" the silicon version nicely.

http://www.smallbearelec.com/HowTos/BreadboardSiFF/BreadboardSiFF.htm

Get out your breadboard, set the thing up with trimpots in place of resistors and do some experimenting. A good pair of germanium devices costs something, yes. But such devices have never been more easily available or in such variety...treat yourself, and have some fun.

SD

Yeah, I figured it was just a matter of taste and what type of signature you are looking for.
I wasn't attempting to suggest that one is better then the other, more just asking why it seems certain people prefer one type over the other.  I guess that is just a personal preference though or based specifically on the design.

[guitarrob]

Hi
the unstated subtext to this seems to relate to the advantages of germanium transistors in the fuzzface and rangemaster (and rarities like the FZ-1s).
In most other designs, germanium doesn't make a lot of difference (except, perhaps by throwing the bias out and adding noise).
My 2c says that if the original was germanium, stay with that. If the original was old silicon (roughly pre1980) use low hFE silicon. If the original is modern silicon, just use the same device.
The $8-20 for a pair of Germanium gets a lot of attention, but seriously...how many coffees/sodas/beers/burgers do you get for that? 
cheers

I hear what you are saying.  I wasn't suggesting either was better as I see it as more of a preference and some prefer certain type for a specific design or when looking for a specific signature.  I guess it will be one of those things where I have to sit and do some testing on my own to figure out what each type offers.

[CodeMonk]

It's not that simple. Germanium devices have fundamental differences from silicon and work well for certain distortion effects. These effects are imbedded in pedal history and are sounds that people expect. Silicon may or may not come all that close to those specific sounds.

Even more, the circuits the transistors are in have a huge effect, probably more than whether the transistors are germanium or silicon. You cannot make something sound good by simply rubbing germanium transistors on it.

The advertising on pedals is so intense that all the invocation of the "germanium" token has made people think there is some advantage to germanium per se. There's not. It's everything, including the transistor choice.

This is all a preamble explaining why I say this:

Your question does not make technical sense as stated.

It's the logical question for someone who does not understand circuits a lot, but it's much like asking whether Ford or Chevy-based dragsters are faster.

Love that analogy ( I used to go to drag races in my younger days).


On Topic:
Just to add what others have said, neither is better, and "better" is peference.
Ge may sound "better" in some circuits and Si may sound "better" in others.

[joelindsey]

Hey guys, I see for certain fuzz design people prefer to use germanium Transistors which can be pricey.
I know you can also use silicon but they would change the sound somewhat.  Do you prefer germanium to Silicon?
A friend has some Russian MP13B's but I am not sure if they would be any good for fuzz box designs.
Do you look for high quality germanium when building Fuzz boxes or just use some silicon and be done with it?

Many will say fuzzes using germanium have a more 60's sound. It is more expensive and they can be more difficult to work with. Personally, I try not to get hung up on what kind of transistor is in the pedal, as long as it sounds good. I recently built a Fuzzrite using modern silicon transistors and it turned out to be just the trashy, sticky, 60's garage sound I was looking for. Like was mentioned before, it depends on the circuit.

So yes, just use some silicon and be done with it. If you feel like playing with germanium to get That Sound (whatever it may be) down the road, go for it.

[guitarrob]

I think I am going to grab a set of both types to play with and see or rather hear what each type have to offer in a few different circuits.

[glops]

Hi
the unstated subtext to this seems to relate to the advantages of germanium transistors in the fuzzface and rangemaster (and rarities like the FZ-1s).
In most other designs, germanium doesn't make a lot of difference (except, perhaps by throwing the bias out and adding noise).
My 2c says that if the original was germanium, stay with that. If the original was old silicon (roughly pre1980) use low hFE silicon. If the original is modern silicon, just use the same device.
The $8-20 for a pair of Germanium gets a lot of attention, but seriously...how many coffees/sodas/beers/burgers do you get for that? 
cheers

This makes tons of sense.

[fuzzy645]

This kind of reminds me of the "Nitro" vs. "Poly" debate with regards to guitar finishing.

Its really about which one can the manufacturers spin to consumers as being superior, regardless of fact.  To musical gear consumers, the answer is always a simple one: if it was used in the 1950's and 1960's, it must provide superior, vintage, magical tone with the correct mojo to sound like Hendrix, Page, Clapton, etc.. .  Consumer thinking is simple (particularly musicians who are not always the brightest bulbs in the box) -

Germanium Transistors were used in the golden era, therefore they must provide superior tone.
Nitro was used to finish instruments in the golden era, therefore it must be provide superior tone.
Carbon Comp resistors were used in the golden era, therefore they must sound better.

We can easily add 20 items to this list if we expand to include amps, pickups, tubes, capacitors, etc..

This is a model manufacturers have exploited for years with great success.

[digi2t]

I think I am going to grab a set of both types to play with and see or rather hear what each type have to offer in a few different circuits.

That will be your best move. If you don't already have one, get a bread board as well. Insofar as Si vs. Ge, I've built both, and all I can say is that your ears will guide you. That's why I highly recommend bread boarding. I can't think of anything more frustrating than building something that doesn't work, or doesn't work to your expectations.

As for Russian trannies, it's sort of hit or miss. I've used MP20B's in a Skyripper with success, but you have to go through a crapload to find "the right one". Generally, the leakage is fairly low, but the gains can be all over the place. Luckily, they're pretty cheap. I got 100 of them for 20$, but you will have to sit down and sort through them. I used Steve's (smallbear) method to test them. Quick, and easy.

Cheers,
Dino

[thedefog]

This kind of reminds me of the "Nitro" vs. "Poly" debate with regards to guitar finishing.

Its really about which one can the manufacturers spin to consumers as being superior, regardless of fact.  To musical gear consumers, the answer is always a simple one: if it was used in the 1950's and 1960's, it must provide superior, vintage, magical tone with the correct mojo to sound like Hendrix, Page, Clapton, etc.. .  Consumer thinking is simple (particularly musicians who are not always the brightest bulbs in the box) -

Germanium Transistors were used in the golden era, therefore they must provide superior tone.
Nitro was used to finish instruments in the golden era, therefore it must be provide superior tone.
Carbon Comp resistors were used in the golden era, therefore they must sound better.

We can easily add 20 items to this list if we expand to include amps, pickups, tubes, capacitors, etc..

This is a model manufacturers have exploited for years with great success.

Agreed. We become accustomed to something, we are comfortable with that familiarity, and we then assume it is the best because of that knowledge (or lack thereof). With something as subjective as "tone", of course there will be a million varying opinions on the matter, but most of the time they hardly matter. The person creating the art and the medium  is much more important. It's like those tests that were done with analog tape recording vs digital where nobody could tell the difference, even the "golden ears" mastering gurus. Or how a discarded failed Bass Guitar sequencer (TB-303) turned into a new genre of music by poor musicians snatching up instruments in pawn shops. And now they're worth $1000s. Or how Jack White routinely uses cheap $50 guitars and manages to get better "tone" out of it than someone with a custom made $10,000 guitar.

People worry too much and spend way too much on this trivial stuff instead of just playing around and experimenting with different sounds and having fun with it. Use what you think sounds best, don't worry about what anyone else thinks. All that matters is that you like it.

[seedlings]

Count me in the bandwagon that always prefers the better sounding transistor.


CHAD

[Paul Marossy]

It's not that simple. Germanium devices have fundamental differences from silicon and work well for certain distortion effects. These effects are imbedded in pedal history and are sounds that people expect. Silicon may or may not come all that close to those specific sounds.

Even more, the circuits the transistors are in have a huge effect, probably more than whether the transistors are germanium or silicon. You cannot make something sound good by simply rubbing germanium transistors on it.

To me, this is in the same category as this inductor vs. that inductor in a wah pedal. I think it's a pretty subjective topic.

I will say that I think it's an advantage to use Si transistors because they are not affected by temperature like Ge types are.

[snarblinge]

i use germs in Fuzz circuits for Wank factor, very important in a pedal.

the russian ones tend to look pretty cool, together with matching resistors and fancy caps the whole this starts to look nice and arty.

this stompbox thing is an art is it not?

[Rick899]

As you can see there is no easy answer. Except it is by now probably becoming pretty clear:  You're going to have to build both! Better a couple of each. As long as you're ordering parts, right? Well, at least three .... A PNP Germanium; a PNP Silicon; and a NPN Silicon; Well, maybe 4, so you can get a second matched pair of Germaniums just to see the difference when you add the "Fuller" mods you will read about in the famous, must read article:   "The Technology of the Fuzz Face" ;  Four is about right.

[Puguglybonehead]

I tried building a Germanium Fuzz Face. Tried. Very frustrating build. I gave up and bought one on ebay from somebody who could build one.
Germanium sounds cool, but it's not suitable for everything. A silicon fuzz seems to give more sustain. (and smoother too, remembering both my old Kent Fuzz-Wah or my old Big Muff Pi)

Germanium: I think, Incense Peppermints, or Satisfaction

Silicon: I think, Iron Man or pretty well anything by Smashing Pumpkins.

[artifus]

... if it was used in the 1950's and 1960's, it must provide superior, vintage, magical tone with the correct mojo to sound like Hendrix, Page, Clapton, etc.. . ...

stumbled upon this recently: tubes versus transistors. a not entirely unrelated read. science!