Germanium or Silicon?

[Puguglybonehead]

Oh, and one more thing. Germanium will survive EMP bombardment. The all solid-state (all-germanium at the time) PRC-77 radio sets survived U.S. Army EMP tests in the 1960s, while the hybrid PRC-25  and the all-tube PRC-6 radios did not. (cathodes fried, I believe) Not sure how well Silicon would hold out, but we're all gonna want to wail away on our guitars in a post-nuclear environment, aren't we?

[LucifersTrip]

I don't think this has been mentioned...so a couple warnings/notes to the OP [guitarrob]:

In many circuits, you cannot simply substitute a ge for si and vice versa. The Fuzz Face is cool because you can, but try substituting a silicon for a ge in an FZ-1 or variant and you will most likely get nothing...no sound at all.  Since ge's & si's have different specs, you will have to alter the circuit to accommodate what you're using.

Secondly, though a Fuzz Face is the most popular circuit for beginners to try with germanium, it is not even close to the easiest (do a search here for fuzz face problem).  For a FF, you will need to learn how to measure gain & leakage and there will be tweaking of the bias.

A Fuzz Rite or FR variant is far easier to get a good sound with germanium.  If you are just starting with ge, in addition to the Fuzz Rite, might I suggest either of these instead of the FF. Neither needs specific gains and both work best with lower gains:
http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fuzzface-fy2-mod-variable.jpg
http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge.jpg

You'd probably have a good chance of getting something cool with the MP13B's your friend has.

[DavenPaget]

... if it was used in the 1950's and 1960's, it must provide superior, vintage, magical tone with the correct mojo to sound like Hendrix, Page, Clapton, etc.. . ...

stumbled upon this recently: tubes versus transistors. a not entirely unrelated read. science!

Who else ever dares to argue that tubes sound a whole lot better then sand !
It's ridiculous why anyone thinks tubes sound better !
And that frightening curve ! that makes people think tube's watts are louder , watts are watts , volume is volume .

[asatbluesboy]

Germanium sounds cool, but it's not suitable for everything. A silicon fuzz seems to give more sustain. (and smoother too, remembering both my old Kent Fuzz-Wah or my old Big Muff Pi)

Germanium: I think, Incense Peppermints, or Satisfaction

Silicon: I think, Iron Man or pretty well anything by Smashing Pumpkins.

I think that might be more the answer the OP wanted.

Having had the chance to play around with both, I tend to favor Si Fuzz Faces and Ge MK II Tone Benders. The reason for the first is silicon's usually sounding ballsier and smoother and having more sustain--as noted. Great stoner rock tone.

The reason for the latter is the better articulation you usually get from germanium. The MK II is one gainy mother, and every bit of articulation you can keep, you should. Great early Led Zep tone.

[guitarrob]

I don't think this has been mentioned...so a couple warnings/notes to the OP [guitarrob]:

In many circuits, you cannot simply substitute a ge for si and vice versa. The Fuzz Face is cool because you can, but try substituting a silicon for a ge in an FZ-1 or variant and you will most likely get nothing...no sound at all.  Since ge's & si's have different specs, you will have to alter the circuit to accommodate what you're using.

Secondly, though a Fuzz Face is the most popular circuit for beginners to try with germanium, it is not even close to the easiest (do a search here for fuzz face problem).  For a FF, you will need to learn how to measure gain & leakage and there will be tweaking of the bias.

A Fuzz Rite or FR variant is far easier to get a good sound with germanium.  If you are just starting with ge, in addition to the Fuzz Rite, might I suggest either of these instead of the FF. Neither needs specific gains and both work best with lower gains:
http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fuzzface-fy2-mod-variable.jpg
http://www.luciferstrip.com/fuzz/fy-2-ge.jpg

You'd probably have a good chance of getting something cool with the MP13B's your friend has.

Hey, I never suggested they are drop in replacements for each other.  I do understand about measuring leakage and adjusting Bias..etc. for the components.  Appreciate the heads up anyway!

I am considering messing with some fuzz designs down the road using both Ge and Si layouts just to hear what they both have to offer but these are among projects I will get to eventually.
I appreciate the links.

[guitarrob]

Germanium sounds cool, but it's not suitable for everything. A silicon fuzz seems to give more sustain. (and smoother too, remembering both my old Kent Fuzz-Wah or my old Big Muff Pi)

Germanium: I think, Incense Peppermints, or Satisfaction

Silicon: I think, Iron Man or pretty well anything by Smashing Pumpkins.

I think that might be more the answer the OP wanted.

Having had the chance to play around with both, I tend to favor Si Fuzz Faces and Ge MK II Tone Benders. The reason for the first is silicon's usually sounding ballsier and smoother and having more sustain--as noted. Great stoner rock tone.

The reason for the latter is the better articulation you usually get from germanium. The MK II is one gainy mother, and every bit of articulation you can keep, you should. Great early Led Zep tone.

Yeah, I was just interested in what people think of each type as it seems some people look to one type to give that specific sound they are after.  I never considered one to be better then the other as that is just a matter of taste.
I figured I would ask for opinion for the sake of conversation but I think I am just going to have to sit down with a proto-board a few designs and both designs.

[LucifersTrip]

It's actually a pretty ridiculous discussion, since there are hundreds of different fuzzes/distortions/boosters.  How many here have actually done A/B tests with si & ge for more than a few different effects?

I guess it could be a good discussion for a specific effect, like a Fuzz Face...but it always comes down to personal taste....and I'm also willing to bet that tons of newbies who say they like their si build over their ge build aren't really experienced enough to make a killer ge one...yet. (ie, for most, in the beginning, it is far easier to make a really good sounding si than ge)

[artifus]

It's actually a pretty ridiculous discussion, since there are hundreds of different fuzzes/distortions/boosters.  How many here have actually done A/B tests with si & ge for more than a few different effects?

agreed. variables: you, your ears, your mood, your environment, your guitar, strings, pick/fingers, cable, amp, playing style, the context in which the effect is to be used, alignment of the stars, phase of the moon, etc, etc, etc...

[amptramp]

It's actually a pretty ridiculous discussion, since there are hundreds of different fuzzes/distortions/boosters.  How many here have actually done A/B tests with si & ge for more than a few different effects?

I guess it could be a good discussion for a specific effect, like a Fuzz Face...but it always comes down to personal taste....and I'm also willing to bet that tons of newbies who say they like their si build over their ge build aren't really experienced enough to make a killer ge one...yet. (ie, for most, in the beginning, it is far easier to make a really good sounding si than ge)

Not to mention the fact that since a Fuzz Face has no power supply bypassing, running on batteries will give a different sound at different voltages as the battery ages and its internal impedance rises.  Some of the world-class players use them because if your name is Clapton and you walk into a music store, they will let you select from a bushel basket of Fuzz Faces to see if there is a good one among them and they all sound different.  So an A/B test among a bunch of samples of nominally identical units may prove to be as different as a test between Ge and Si.

[joelindsey]

Who else ever dares to argue that tubes sound a whole lot better then sand !
It's ridiculous why anyone thinks tubes sound better !
And that frightening curve ! that makes people think tube's watts are louder , watts are watts , volume is volume .

...and yet most guitarists prefer tube amps still, including people who know their stuff and don't buy into the marketing hype? My Twin and AC15 to my ears sounds better than any solid state amp I've played. So yes, I'll dare to argue that tube amps sound better until I hear an amp that compares favorably, be it solid state or tube. There must be a reason other than "tube sells" why nobody is making solid state AC30's and Twin Reverbs if it is replicated with ease. Heck, I'd buy one.

[Seven64]

It's not that simple. Germanium devices have fundamental differences from silicon and work well for certain distortion effects. These effects are imbedded in pedal history and are sounds that people expect. Silicon may or may not come all that close to those specific sounds.

Even more, the circuits the transistors are in have a huge effect, probably more than whether the transistors are germanium or silicon. You cannot make something sound good by simply rubbing germanium transistors on it.

The advertising on pedals is so intense that all the invocation of the "germanium" token has made people think there is some advantage to germanium per se. There's not. It's everything, including the transistor choice.

This is all a preamble explaining why I say this:

Your question does not make technical sense as stated.

It's the logical question for someone who does not understand circuits a lot, but it's much like asking whether Ford or Chevy-based dragsters are faster.

well, considering the ford probably wont make it down the dragstrip............

[DavenPaget]

Who else ever dares to argue that tubes sound a whole lot better then sand !
It's ridiculous why anyone thinks tubes sound better !
And that frightening curve ! that makes people think tube's watts are louder , watts are watts , volume is volume .

...and yet most guitarists prefer tube amps still, including people who know their stuff and don't buy into the marketing hype? My Twin and AC15 to my ears sounds better than any solid state amp I've played. So yes, I'll dare to argue that tube amps sound better until I hear an amp that compares favorably, be it solid state or tube. There must be a reason other than "tube sells" why nobody is making solid state AC30's and Twin Reverbs if it is replicated with ease. Heck, I'd buy one.

The reason ? They want to make easy money . Since most guitarist's eyes are bent on buying TUBE .
If there was a comparable version of a AC50 people would buy . Oh for the record the Tubetronix or something like that equipped VT-50 is rubbish and hardly comparable . The last time i played with it i had my face buried into my palms .
The copy of that amp which is what i own is much better fair to say , but the VT-50 has a real 12AX7 inside .
12AX7 aside , it is still too noisy and it's distortion find it quite lacking .

[joegagan]

iron man sounds like germanium to me. so does most of what blackmore recorded during the early purple heyday. ( blackmore famously reported that an overdriven sony tape machine preamp was present during the 60s/>mid 70s period, these have high quality japanese ge trans)

[LucifersTrip]

iron man sounds like germanium to me. so does most of what blackmore recorded during the early purple heyday. ( blackmore famously reported that an overdriven sony tape machine preamp was present during the 60s/>mid 70s period, these have high quality japanese ge trans)

...and Iommi did use a Rangemaster(germanium, of course), at least in the early days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treble_booster#Dallas_Rangemaster