The Talk-a-lizer experiment.

[digi2t]

Hi all.

I decided to start a new thread here, because the Vocalizer thread where this originated was starting to get fairly heavy.

This experiment started just after I put together an EH Talking Pedal clone (many thanks to Ronan). I was really impressed how the fuzz was much nicer than the Colorsound Vocalizers, and it also seemed to especially play well with other dirt pedals going into it. Much more so than the Vocalizer. So, after carefully studying the two schematic, I decided to go out on a bread board limb, and try to cut and paste the best parts of the circuits together. The result is what I call the "Talk-a-lizer". Front end of the Talking Pedal, with the filter section of the Vocalizer. The best part, which was an accidental discovery, is that it cleans up very well when you dial off the fuzz. This was something that bothered me about the Vocalizer, and a complaint also voiced by Paully in the Vocalizer thread. Problem no more. The TL074 cleans up amazingly well here. Way better than the RC4136, or LM324. Added bonus, with the TP's front end, the filter section seems to sound even better now, dirty or clean.  One other mod I put onto mine, I added a third diode for assymetrical clipping. You could add a switch to switch between sym and assym if you like. I just prefer the sound of the assym clipping here, so it's fixed in mine.

Here's the schematic;



and the vero layout;



Some pictures of the build;











I retained the volume, and frequency control, which we added on the Vocalizer, along side the fuzz control. Here's a video demo of the pedal. I didn't record any dirt going into it, but trust me, it works really well. Since the pedals front end can get much cleaner now, it doesn't taint any signal with additional dirt, but filters it only. In some cases, the failing of the Vocalizer is the fact that it doesn't clean up completely, adversely affecting the tone of the signal going in. On with the show...

Viva la imaginacion! 

[artifus]

good work dude! sounds ace! pretty pictures and informative vid. your posts are much appreciated.

and the build list gets longer...

[Vince_b]

I really like your demo, I will put this on my "to build" list.
Anyone knows were I can buy a (metal) wah shell for not too much?

[digi2t]

I really like your demo, I will put this on my "to build" list.
Anyone knows were I can buy a (metal) wah shell for not too much?

I initially thought that buying an empty shell retail would be cheap, but it turned out that scanning the net or Ebay for an actual Crybaby is cheaper. Keep your eyes peeled, you'll see more than the occasional teen/disgruntled picker looking to ditch a CB on the cheap. That's how I get mine, and gut them.

[Vince_b]

This is probably what I will end up doing. Every empty shell that I could find are about the same price as an used Crybaby.

[Ronan]

An incredible transformation there Dino! Very nice. You have exceeded yourself this time. That sounds really good. The freq pot is a very worthwhile addition also. 

[paulyy]

Great work dino! Still tying to find time to mess with it. Now that I have a baby on the way, my time has been limited. The sound clips sound great. Cant wait to mess with this.

[digi2t]

An incredible transformation there Dino! Very nice. You have exceeded yourself this time. That sounds really good. The freq pot is a very worthwhile addition also.

Thanks Ian. Yes, the freq pot is nice, especially if your pumping another dirt pedal into it. It allows you to "tune" the pedal to some degree.

As for exceeding myself, truth be known, this sucker almost found it's way into the trash can. After assembly, it didn't work. All I was getting was farting noises. I poked, proded, tested, measured, repoked, reproded, retested, remeasured... well you get the picture... for a solid day! I shit you not. It defied me at every turn. I was even beginning to assume that although it worked fine on the bread board, that maybe there was just too much cross-talk going on in the tighter confines of the vero, and that I had failed. I went to bed weary and dejected. It wasn't until the next afternoon, examining it with "fresher" eyes, that I noticed that I had forgotten 2 cuts.

(Loud sound of hand slapping forehead)

Lesson, as always, the more you stare at the forest, the less trees you see ... need I go on? 

Great work dino! Still tying to find time to mess with it. Now that I have a baby on the way, my time has been limited. The sound clips sound great. Cant wait to mess with this.

FANTASTIC NEWS!! Your first? If so, you're in for a treat! It transforms your life my friend. Congrats to the little lady and yourself. Actually, I brought some cigars back from Cuba, I'll smoke one in your honor  .

[~arph]

Wow sounds very nice!

[Mark Hammer]

Daddy like!

Don't know if it nails the Schaller Yoy-yoy perfectly, but it certainly comes more than close enough for my liking.  With the right king of dirt, I imagine it could do "Haitian Divorce" (Steely Dan) flawlessly.  Indeed, while a well-executed talk-box can do a little more, about 80% of those who use one probably don't want, or know how to get any more, than what this pedal does.

Very nice work.  I have an empty wah shell that needs a purpose in life, and I think I've found it.

[Colonel Angus]

awesome! Just did a Kay Fuzz-tone, but this one ups that for sure. Imma clean ebay out of "for parts" crybabys...

[digi2t]

Thanks to one and all for the praise and encouragement.

If anyone is wondering about the silver cigar on the board, that's a KEMET 5uF non-polar tantalum. You can use a 4.7uF polarized as well, like in the Talking pedal. Just pop the smaller 4.7 somewhere in the middle, and join the ends with jumper(s). Just make sure you don't conflict with anything on any of the other rails i.e. make cuts if necessary.

I bought those Kemets of Ebay cheap for another project some time ago, FINALLY I found a use for one... 

[Vince_b]

Thanks for clarifying this. I was wondering if the use of a tantalum cap was crucial.
But if I use a polarized cap, how should it be oriented on the vero?

[artifus]

tants are polarized, no?

*edit* can't see it labelled on scheme nor layout, but all the tants i've ever come across have been polarized and crucially so. one would assume positive at fuzz pot and neg at 47k r16 but clarification would be appreciated.

[Vince_b]

Dino said that he used a non-polar tantalum 5uf cap. Most tantalum cap are polarized but some are not. Actually they are two capacitors in-one, connected negative-to-negative, this is how they make them non-polarized.

[artifus]

ah, something new everyday... actually - there's a way of doing this with two electro's - will check my bookmarks and report back...

*edit* can't find it but quick google:

"electrolytic capacitors ... Non-polar (or bi-polar) devices can be made by using two anodes instead of an anode and a cathode, or one could connect the positives or negatives of two identical device together, then the other two terminals would form a non-polar device." -- http://electrochem.cwru.edu/encycl/art-c04-electr-cap.htm

"you can substitute two regular electrolytics in series ... with their negative ends joined in the middle. ... in fact, that's what you'd find if you opened a real nonpolarized capacitor." -- Charles Platt. "MAKE: Electronics: Learning Through Discovery". O'Reilly Media, Inc., 2009. p. 249. (excerpts available on http://books.google.com/ ).

"A common argument is over whether or not you can make a non-polarized capacitor by putting two polarized electrolytics back-to-back. People have been doing this for years, with no problems to my knowledge." http://my.execpc.com/~endlr/electrolytic.html

[digi2t]

If you're using a polar cap, positive side toward pole 2 of the fuzz pot (FUZZ 2 connection point on the vero). Like I said, a 4.7uF polar will do fine. That's what we're running in the Talking Pedal clones, no problemo. No mods required either, positive lead in the hole on the FUZZ 2 end, negative in the hole next to the top of the jumper running parallel to the 5uf in the vero (2 rows above VOLUME 2&3). The leads will be doing a bit of a "spread eagle", but it should be fine.

[artifus]

*

[Ronan]

Are those stainless nyloc 4-40 nuts holding that PCB down? They look classy!

I noticed in the vid it appears the toe/heel positions may be the reverse of the convention, if there is one for vocal pedals. Would it work easier/be more intuitive to use if one of the pots were reversed? Just the white wire would have to be soldered to the other outer terminal of that pot half. Then the whole pot might have to be rotated/adjusted slightly to the correct position again as well. Just a thought.

Another thought I had is what if a 10K pot were placed after the two filters to get a different mix of the filters, much the same as the 10K pot for the clean/fuzz blend. Today I will spend some time breadboarding and see what comes up. I have 2 x CA3080 on order but in the meantime half an LM13700 should work OK, I hope.

[Morocotopo]

Digi, this is a very cool pedal! Great work. For sure I´ll build it sometime. Don´t know where the hell I´ll find a wah shell here in Argentina, but...
Anyway, would it be too much to ask for a little clearer schem? In the one posted it´s a little hard to read some values. Or my eyesight is getting worse.

Thanks!