Tube amp builder opinion required

[Le québécois]

Does building tube amp is expensive like DIYstompbox? I mean despite being a lot of fun, highly addictive and satisfying, we all figure out at a moment or the other that stompbox building is expensive. I probably spent 1000$ since I began and although I have a full homemade multifx out of this and many parts yet to be use, for that price I could have bought many good analog effect........ without the DIY satisfaction of course.
 
I want a fender twin reverb or deluxe ... still need to compared! It's around 1000$ - 1400$CDN in my region. The schematics I have found don't look that crazy although it is not 9volt DC anymore and may be dangerous. Well this forum may be of great aid in that concern.

So should I put 1000$ in parts or in a brand new amp?

A second question.  I have a 10 W tube amp and like the sound. Is there any way to use the speaker output of the amp (rate 8-16 ohm) and boost it in a homemade power amp to crank the level for gig capacity (30 - 50 W). So a 10W amp become a 50 watt amp.  I don't mind if it's transistor based. If it don't color the sound, the tube sound will remained right?

Thank you

   

[mremic01]

Your second question is something I cant' give you a detailed answer about, but it sounds like a bad idea. You might be better off mic'ing the speaker on the 10W amp.

Building DIY tube amps is expensive, probably more so than pedals. Mostly this is because of the transformers. Amp manufacturers order them in bulk, but for the DIYer, the transformers will probably cost as much as all the other components combined.

For a Fender Twin, look at Weber kits. They are usually cheaper than other companies that offer kits, and the parts are pretty decent.  http://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits.htm

[defaced]

DIY tube amps are expensive, and not cost effective compared to current production (boutique aside) or used amps.  It is a viable cost effective option for certain vintage amps.  Speakers and hardware/chassis/cabinets are things that can be difficult and do not show up on the schematic.  If the parts to DIY are more than 50% of simply buying an amp, I wouldn't build one.  Now if you want something that isn't made and difficult to get through simple modding, DIY is your only route. 

With a suitable load on the output, you can pass that signal to another amp.  This is done on amps like the Soldano SLO as a "power amp out" jack which is simply a pot and jack in parallel with the output jack. 

[Le québécois]

With a suitable load on the output, you can pass that signal to another amp.  This is done on amps like the Soldano SLO as a "power amp out" jack which is simply a pot and jack in parallel with the output jack.  

Can you defined precise ''suitable load''.   I know my amp expect a certain resistance (the speaker ?impedance?) rated between 8 - 16 ohm in my case. So I would need to put 8 - 16 ohm resistor to limit the current and then a voltage divider to drop the level back to guitar signal and inject that in a more potent amp (let say my crapy peavy)?

edit: if this is close to correct, sending the signal in a FX return of the second amp won't color de sound and avoid the preamp. Could this work. It may avoid me a 1000$ buy!

[defaced]

You've got the right concept.  Suitable load could be the speaker that's already connected to the amp, or an active dummy load (think like a , or a passive dummy load (resistor of suitable power).  All will "work" with the speaker being "perfect" in terms of nonlinear OT/speaker behavior, the active load being the next best, and the resistor being the "worst" in this regard.  As for keeping a load on the OT so it won't kill itself, all are fine.  Now if you don't care about the output section of the tube amp, yank the power tubes, wire up a padded down FX send, and feed that into your other amp. 

[iccaros]

No to overstep Defaced
but 10 watts is loud enough to gig, and you should be using a PA, mike the Amp and use monitors. I have a 15 watt Carvin that I use, it keeps up with drummers and we play loud.. Your speakers will make most of the difference. 3db in efficiency will give you twice the output in volume.

I use my Vox in 1/4 mode most of the time, I can not hear it on stage, But I can in the Monitor and through the PA system.

Lowing stage volume will allow you to play better (because you can hear) will stop the war of Amps a lot of bands have issues with and will protect your hearing, you man not care now about that but if you love music you better start.

Having played with 50 - 350 watt amps.. I can tell you its much better below 10watts, I can hear more of what is going on.

Defaced is not wrong, but I would just Mike the amp with the PA and leave it at that.

[Le québécois]

@iccaros
Other guitarist in my band just like to play through pod stuff ....(actually they think i'm crazy with my analog and tube quest!)...... and they use it strait through the PA and monitor. My few attempt to mic my amp did'nt work. Somehow the voice + the pod and my amp = bad sound. The frequency get lost or cancel each other. I could use a monitor for my amp alone but buying one is expensive, almost like a new amp.

I'm surprise by your statement ''10 w is loud enough to gig + you play loud'' I have 10 inch celestion in the amp. Do you really think that I could have more loudness with different speaker!!?? if so tell my how ....  My only experience with muy 10 w unmiced tube amp show me that it was not enough even in 4x12 cab with proper impedance matching.

I use ear plug for long time now and totally agree with you about my hearing. Still we like it loud in our gig !

the active load being the next best, and the resistor being the "worst" in this regard. 

So a single resistor is like a RC filter.... sort of? It will not have the good impedance at all frequency. arghhhhh! active load is probably difficult to build? Or at least will color the sound somehow?

p.s. somehow the correction tool is not available anymore. Sorry for mispelling.

[iccaros]

Audio loudness is measured in DB's.  Doubling an amps power only rises the output by 3db. So if you have a 10" celestron at 96db /1watt and switch that for a 103db/1watt Red Coat Wizard 12", your 10 watt amp will put out the same volume as a (103 - 96 =  7 / 3 = 2  or close enough) giving you the same volume as  40 watt amp would through your 10" celestron.

IF things sound bad coming out of the PA, then learning how to mix, giving each interment its own space is a skill that will payoff when recording.

A decent monitor (non powered) can cost as little as $150.

A hotplate, which cost $350, would do what you and allow your to reamp your system. http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_hotplate.html

A resistor by its self if not a good solution or even an Lpad because the amp you send the audio to may change the impedance seen by the amp.

you can build a good tube amp for about $450 - speaker and cabinet.

I sold my Pod equipment... To Defaced as a matter of fact. He is a good guy and will not lead you wrong.. I just have a different take.

[gruemungus]

The h&k red box can do this or you can buy a work alike for around $40.

[iccaros]

good suggestion ^^^^, just remember you still have to have your speaker plugged into this as it does not act as a load, its a speaker simulator.

[diydave]

So should I put 1000$ in parts or in a brand new amp?

I've build 4 complete tube amps for that amount of cash. 
In different levels of wattage: 3 watt, 5 watt, 18 watt and 36 watt.
But the circuits are simple, no double or triple channel switching (except the 36 watt), no reverb, tagboard or home-made pcb, I make my own chassis and use scrap-wood for the headshells.

[Le québécois]

Audio loudness is measured in DB's.  Doubling an amps power only rises the output by 3db. So if you have a 10" celestron at 96db /1watt and switch that for a 103db/1watt Red Coat Wizard 12", your 10 watt amp will put out the same volume as a (103 - 96 =  7 / 3 = 2  or close enough) giving you the same volume as  40 watt amp would through your 10" celestron.

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/Specifications%20Tube%2010.pdf
According to that documentation my celestion is 94 db.
According to your calculation with a red coat wizard at 103 db, this would give me the equivalent of 3 time 3 db (103 - 94 / 3 = 3!! ). Equivalent of a 10w x 2 x 2 x 2 or 80 w tube amp!
euhhhhhhh Is there something I don't get?     Why bigger amp just exist apart from filling stadium?! I say let sub some speaker's!!
There is a catch? I don't know? something like ''it will use your tube prematuraly'' or ''overheat your entire amp'' ??
I'm stunned. You make my day. Merci beaucoup! 

I sold my Pod equipment... To Defaced as a matter of fact. He is a good guy and will not lead you wrong.. I just have a different take.

Small world!

[Puguglybonehead]

I think your 10 watt tube amp would definitely benefit from a better speaker. What kind of amp is it, by the way? You said it takes a 10" speaker? That would probably limit your options to something like an Eminence Rajun Cajun (100.1 dB sensitivity) But that would still be a big improvement over the Celestion. I put a Rajun Cajun in my 20 watt Supro 1600. It quickly became too loud to crank up properly to distortion in our rehearsal space. I can only crank it up at live gigs now, because that speaker is so much louder than the original.

I am now waiting for my 10 watt Gibson G-8T Crestline to get back from the repair shop, so I will have a more useable amp.

[Le québécois]

@Puguglybonehead
It's a Laney CUB10. If I do the speaker changes (very likely) I will build a small cab with the new speaker in it and leave it at my practice room. This way I will keep the 10 " celestion for bedroom practice level and just plug the external speaker jack when giging (it automatically disconnect the celestion when using the external jack- nice feature for such a small amp).

I'm not sure I understand what you said about your Rajun Cajun and 20 w amp. You say it quikly became too loud to crank up properly? In a bad way? or because it just unbearablely loud ?

I'm planning to use 12 " or 2 x 10 " or..... well I'm new in speaker world....I will have to look around and compare the pro and con of multiple speaker, size etc. Sometime big is not the best "soundwise". Advise are welcome. Around here I can find Eminence governor 12 " 75w and 102 db for ± 100$.

[Puguglybonehead]

That Eminence Governor would be a good choice, especially if you are going to build a separate cabinet for it. What I found with the speaker upgrade on my Supro was that, while with the old alnico speaker, I could crank the amp up to 3/4 volume, where it really starts to snarl nicely. With the Rajun Cajun, it was already getting too loud to hear the vocals in our rehearsal space while the amp was only at 1/3 volume. The amp doesn't start to sound sweet unless it's at least at 2/3 volume. The Cajun was more efficient than a 20 watt amp required. However, it would probably be perfect for a 10 watt amp. The Governor should sound great with your amp!

[iccaros]

Audio loudness is measured in DB's.  Doubling an amps power only rises the output by 3db. So if you have a 10" celestron at 96db /1watt and switch that for a 103db/1watt Red Coat Wizard 12", your 10 watt amp will put out the same volume as a (103 - 96 =  7 / 3 = 2  or close enough) giving you the same volume as  40 watt amp would through your 10" celestron.

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/Specifications%20Tube%2010.pdf
According to that documentation my celestion is 94 db.
According to your calculation with a red coat wizard at 103 db, this would give me the equivalent of 3 time 3 db (103 - 94 / 3 = 3!! ). Equivalent of a 10w x 2 x 2 x 2 or 80 w tube amp!
euhhhhhhh Is there something I don't get?     Why bigger amp just exist apart from filling stadium?! I say let sub some speaker's!!
There is a catch? I don't know? something like ''it will use your tube prematuraly'' or ''overheat your entire amp'' ??
I'm stunned. You make my day. Merci beaucoup! 

I sold my Pod equipment... To Defaced as a matter of fact. He is a good guy and will not lead you wrong.. I just have a different take.

Small world!

\

Higher wattage amps are cleaner  in most cases, they stay clean even when past the half way point.  Smaller amps do not have the same headroom..  This is not true in transistor amps,  and different amps have different styles. I play more tool and sound garden type stuff  so I like a heavy overdriven preamp, but clean power amp, so larger wattage amps are better for this.  but my fave amp is my Vox AC4tv, its got a nice blues overdrive when it pushes the power tube to saturate. I keep it 1/4watt for live shows and mic it..  Have never gotten to play with other people with it in 5 watt mode, the 2x12 cab I built with 1 celeston vintage 30 and one Jensen just make this amp sing..

now to be clear those calcuations are to compair if you had a 80 watt plugged into your 10" speaker while your 10watt was playing through the more efficient speaker.  The Key is that it takes less power to make a more efficient speaker move, so its louder.

[gruemungus]

The eminence RED FANG  10" is rated @  50w rms with 102db sensitivity.

[Le québécois]

@gruemungus
Is this a recommendation?

@iccaros
Yes I think it's perfectly clear. I still end up with a 10 W amp and I won't suddenly need 80w rated speaker. thank you again for this good information.

to all:
I know it's not stompbox related but I realized that speaker as many other thing is a world on it's own. Celestion vs emminece vs many others..... 10 " or 12 "....... open cab, close cab..............1, 2, 4 speaker wired in serie or parallel ....... We could even think of 10" combine with 12 ".

I play funk, punk, rock, ska, led zeppelin , beatles, black sabbath. I rarely put my amp in overdrive (I use pedal). I want a nice round clean sound out of my speaker. Although not loud, I like my actual 10" celestion sound but I only know this one. I've read that eminence governor (my initial choice) may not be best in open cab (low Qts of 0.56) nor for clean sound.

Any taught on some of these aspect would be welcome. I would like to buy a keeper right away. Good speakers can be expensive and can't by tested before we buy them.

I already decide to build open cab (easier to begin with). I'm thinking to build 1 x 12" and if it end up fine maybe a second 1 x12" (serie or parallel) so that I can put them at diffrent place in my giging room.     

[Keeb]

I can't help you with the technical stuff, but last summer I was looking into building a clone of the Fender Twin Reverb.
The cheapest I could find was the kit from Ted Weber.

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60a.htm#6A14

I never got around to do it so I can't say anything about the quality...
I remember reading something about the need of good grounding in order to prevent hum (might sound a bit self explainatory...).
There's a lot of info on the forums over there.

[StarGeezers]

 Le Q , you need to check out the Tone per Buck Club at www.Wattkins.com .. all about building "Killer" tube amps on the cheap ... 

  Good speaker does make a difference ...  I gig with my own 5 -18 watt tube amps > an Eminence Wizard  (103db.)   Keeps up if the drummer isn't Stupid Loud ...  Any more reinforcement , a Sennheiser E609  into the PA , does it ...