Can your ears distinguish tants from alum/electros?

[lowvolt]

Building a GGG orange squeazer.  I can use either tantalum caps or aluminum electrolytics per the instructions posted on JD's website.  I was leaning towards the A/Es just to be able to run 18vdc (I have some 50 volt A/Es kicking around in the required values).

Is there really an audible difference?  There's a lot of mojo-juju talk about it from what I've read elsewhere so far ... but I haven't found anything like tangible evidence (yet) that they actually sound different enough to go with one or the other as an absolute.

Any experience?

Thanks!  

[digi2t]

I've used both, in various projects. I've never heard any audible difference.

The only caps that have given me any audible difference are the non-polars. In some circuits, I can hear the difference between poly's and ceramics. Especially in wah type circuits. Personally, in my pedals, I usually go with what is the most cost effective. 

Just go with what YOU think sounds best, but I don't believe you'll be dissatisfied one way or the other.

Cheers,
Dino

[lowvolt]

Ah!  Good to know.  Thank you. 

[Earthscum]

I have a single tant that I've tried just for this. It kind of seems to only be noticable in the same instances that you can hear differences in Poly and Ceramics. I had a 1u ceramic and the 1u tant, and they sounded identical to me, slightly "crisper" or "sharper" than electro and poly I listened against. It seems like only certain cases, such as some feedback filtering, that I can really hear much of a difference.

[mremic01]

When I've used electrolytics in parts of the circuit that carry your signal, it's always sounded harsh and nasty. For a long time I didn't know why my perf BSIABII builds were always so awful sounding, then I noticed that I had been using an electro where the GGG kit I had made before had a film cap. That's what made me start paying attention the kind of cap I used. I've started noticing this in a lot of commercial effects too, that they've got a lot of tantalum caps where the signal passes through the cap. My first two attempts at a Crunch Box with electros were also terrible sounding. Then I looked inside of my actual CB and saw the 2.2uf was tantalum. I've built a few CBs with those values as tants since then and they just sound better.

[Electron Tornado]

Is there really an audible difference?  There's a lot of mojo-juju talk about it from what I've read elsewhere so far ... but I haven't found anything like tangible evidence (yet) that they actually sound different enough to go with one or the other as an absolute.

Most info seems to be only anecdotal (or someone trying to sell you something), so take any of it with a block of salt. Here is some info you might have already come across:

http://www.muzique.com/editor.htm   scroll down a bit

http://www.muzique.com/cap_faq.htm

On a side note, if there are any EE students out there, a comparison of capacitors in audio circuits might be an interesting project.

[ayayay!]

As always, it depends on the circuit.  As always, it depends on if it's in the signal path.  As always, "better" is subjective.  As always, perception is up to you.

http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps.html

[joegagan]

ears hear things that scopes and other devices cannot measure. one of the beautiful things about humans. if you hear it, it is real. i have heard cap differences that jack orman's article cannot explain.

[merlinb]

ears hear things that scopes and other devices cannot measure. one of the beautiful things about humans. if you hear it, it is real. i have heard cap differences that jack orman's article cannot explain.

Your ears can't actually tell if it's the capacitors you're hearing. And as soon as you replace them you have changed too much to be sure it really was the capacitor *type* and not the value, leakage, solder joints etc...

As long as an aluminium electro is large enough that it does not roll off in the audio range, its distortion will be too small to hear. Of course, people still like to convince themselves they can hear differences that aren't there.

[nocentelli]

I'd really like to see an objective blind test of various capacitor types.

[lowvolt]

The human race is STILL chasing ghosts ... insisting that the Earth will reverse it's gravitational pull on December 21st ... smelling "chemtrails" emitting gov. sponsored test chemicals in jet airliner exhaust ... waiting for various deities to come and save us or punish us ... "knowing" the Earth was flat a few hundred years ago ... feeling long dead loved ones stroking our hair in the middle of the night.

Thing is .... perception is 100% of reailty.

I'll give the electros a shot ... the worst that can happen is I'll think they suck and have to R&R them with tants.  Then, after that's all said and done I may decide I don't like the OS and go right back to an uncompressed signal chain!

Haahaa!

The only certain thing is change.

Lowvolt.

[lowvolt]

I'd really like to see an objective blind test of various capacitor types.

+1.

[wavley]

You can always bypass them with a smaller value film cap. 

[Paul Marossy]

Is there really an audible difference?  There's a lot of mojo-juju talk about it from what I've read elsewhere so far ... but I haven't found anything like tangible evidence (yet) that they actually sound different enough to go with one or the other as an absolute.

Some people say that it makes a difference in tone controls (as in the Tube Screamer TS808 tone stack).

From the "Capacitor Field Guide":

"Tantalum caps are RABIDLY polar. Reversing the DC polarity even for a brief period of time will cause them to heat and self-destruct. Their low ESR and self-inductance makes them perfectly suited to power supply bypass duties. Leakage current is usually very low, much better than electrolytics. They should be avoided in audio coupling (bipolar) circuits."

"The disadvantages of the electrolytic come from the electrolyte, and how the dielectric is formed. The electrolyte will dry up in time, causing the capacitors to gradually decrease in capacitance. Pushing the capacitor beyond its ratings (either voltage, polarity, or ripple current) will increase the pressure in the cap until it either vents (and loses electrolyte) or explodes. The other problem is that if the electrolytic cap is not used for a long time, the dielectric becomes thinner, decreasing the voltage it can withstand. The dielectric needs an electric field (charge) in order to maintain its strength."

"Electrolytics that have been unused (either in storage or in unused equipment) can have their dielectric layers restored by slowly applying increasing levels of DC voltage. The procedure can take days. Electrolytics suffer from accelerated aging at elevated temperatures. A rule of thumb is that their life is cut in half for each 10 degree Celsius rise above ambient (25C). For all these reasons, electrolytics have a limited life and the user may expect to replace them at some time in the future. Excess hum on a power supply, unstable rolling picture on a monitor are often signs of an electrolytic nearing the end of its useful life. Electrolytic capacitors have a substantial amount of leakage and Dielectric Absorption. This can be a problem in timing circuits, and often limits their use. Some designs (like the 555 timer) minimize these faults by operating the capacitor at voltages where this is less of a problem. The temperature stability of electrolytics is poor and seldom specified."

[lowvolt]

Is there really an audible difference?  There's a lot of mojo-juju talk about it from what I've read elsewhere so far ... but I haven't found anything like tangible evidence (yet) that they actually sound different enough to go with one or the other as an absolute.

Some people say that it makes a difference in tone controls (as in the Tube Screamer TS808 tone stack).

From the "Capacitor Field Guide":

"Tantalum caps are RABIDLY polar. Reversing the DC polarity even for a brief period of time will cause them to heat and self-destruct. Their low ESR and self-inductance makes them perfectly suited to power supply bypass duties. Leakage current is usually very low, much better than electrolytics. They should be avoided in audio coupling (bipolar) circuits."

"The disadvantages of the electrolytic come from the electrolyte, and how the dielectric is formed. The electrolyte will dry up in time, causing the capacitors to gradually decrease in capacitance. Pushing the capacitor beyond its ratings (either voltage, polarity, or ripple current) will increase the pressure in the cap until it either vents (and loses electrolyte) or explodes. The other problem is that if the electrolytic cap is not used for a long time, the dielectric becomes thinner, decreasing the voltage it can withstand. The dielectric needs an electric field (charge) in order to maintain its strength."

"Electrolytics that have been unused (either in storage or in unused equipment) can have their dielectric layers restored by slowly applying increasing levels of DC voltage. The procedure can take days. Electrolytics suffer from accelerated aging at elevated temperatures. A rule of thumb is that their life is cut in half for each 10 degree Celsius rise above ambient (25C). For all these reasons, electrolytics have a limited life and the user may expect to replace them at some time in the future. Excess hum on a power supply, unstable rolling picture on a monitor are often signs of an electrolytic nearing the end of its useful life. Electrolytic capacitors have a substantial amount of leakage and Dielectric Absorption. This can be a problem in timing circuits, and often limits their use. Some designs (like the 555 timer) minimize these faults by operating the capacitor at voltages where this is less of a problem. The temperature stability of electrolytics is poor and seldom specified."

From my own studies on electrolytic caps, as long as you stick with reliable brands such as Nichicon and others like them, and you select "2000 hour load life" specs, their life will most likely exceed that of the owner of the device those caps have been installed in.  Another thing about electros is (back to that load life thing) that the spec is written around "worst case" .. meaning that they are rated for 2k+hours when used at 105C ambient temps.  For every 10 degrees that the ambient temp is decreased, the load life rating is DOUBLED ... not the other way around as the author of the quoted text says.  At 25C that is roughly 80C BELOW rated load life.  So the load life is some ridiculous number past my willingness to sit down and do that math ..(double 2000 hours on it's self EIGHT TIMES!).

And the thing about the shelf life/recharging caps etc ... that applies to caps that have been sitting on the shelf for literally a couple of decades.

Just look at any cap's specs .. the load life rating BEGINS at 105C, not 25C.  So I ~think~ that author has the formula bass-ackwards.  But you know what?  I could be all wet there.  I've been wrong before!  In any case .. if a cap's load life were to be cut in half starting at 25C, and the cap is rated at 1000 hours (like most Made in China "Xicon" type caps are) that means the cap would only last about 3.9 hours total at rated ambient temp!  Three point nine hours!  Can this really be true?  That would mean that some amplifiers would anly last about a day .. if that!  Many amps these days use Xicon or other MIC caps rated at only 1khrs load life.  And Xicon caps have ~ahem~ shall we say "ambitiuos" specifications.  Specs that are rarely what the cap will actually perform/test at.  So if the "halfing starting at 25C" rather than "doubling starting at 105C" idea is factual, nearly every amp made these days (tube amps that is, ones that generate a LOT of internal ambient heat) is gonna crap out in less than a week's worth of use.  While this DOES occassionally happen, it would be an epidemic of failures if the "halfing from 25C" idea were factual.

I know a number of Hammond amp rebuilders, preamp rebuilders, and tonewheel generator rebuilders that use nothing but Nichicon and Vishay caps just because of their reliable and trustworthy specs.  As well as their 2k+hour load life ratings.   My own Hammonds are as old as I am (I'm 51).  One is a 1955, the other is a 1962.  They still have the stock capacitors in them and still test out to spec!  So while I absolutely do NOT consider myself anything even CLOSE to some sortof expert in the field, I think the formula that is spoken of in the quoted text is backwards.  At this point I'm HOPING LIKE HELL it is!  Because I've invested much in high-load-life Nichicon capacitors .. both in financial and reputational meanings.

And again .. that "recharging thing" applies to electros that have been shelved for a couple of decades.  So unless one is buying old "NOS" stuff or is tearing apart old TV sets or whatever for their caps, I wouldn't sweat that too much.

[lowvolt]

Copied from this page in the Almighty Wiki ... (I highlighted the applicable text)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor

"High-quality aluminum electrolytics (computer-grade) have better performance and life than consumer-grade parts. High temperatures and ripple currents shorten life. Typical basic electrolytics are rated to work at temperatures up to 85 °C, and are rated for a worst-case life of about 2000 hours[17] (a year is about 9000 hours); commonly available higher-temperature units are available for temperatures of 105 °C, and a working temperature of 175 °C is possible. One of the effects of aging is an increase in ESR; some circuits can malfunction due to a capacitor with correct capacitance but elevated ESR, although a capacitance meter will not find any fault (an ESR meter will). Runaway failure is possible if increased ESR increases heat dissipation and temperature.

Since the electrolytes evaporate, design life is most often rated in hours at a set temperature, for example, 2000 hours at 105 °C, which is the highest commonly used working temperature, although parts working up to 175 °C are available.[18] Standard inexpensive consumer-grade electrolytic capacitors are rated for 85 °C maximum working temperature. Life in the operational environment is dictated by the Law of Arrhenius, which dictates that the capacitor life is a function of temperature and DC voltage. As a rule of thumb, the life doubles for each 10 °C lower operating temperature.[19][17] In our example, it reaches 15 years at 45 °C (for caps rated at 105 °C). The operating temperature however is not just the ambient temperature. Ripple currents can increase it significantly. The actual operating temperature is a complex function of ambient temperature, air speed, ripple current frequency and amplitude,[19] and also affected by material thermal resistance and the surface area of the can case.[17] In general, high amplitude ripple currents shorten the life expectancy, whereas low frequency ripple is more detrimental than high frequency. The EIA IS-749 is a standard for testing electrolytic capacitor life...."

(end quote)

WHEW! I feel a LOT better now.  That stuff that quoted author was saying had me FREAKIN'!  Knowing that, I'd be leary of anything else in that ~field guide~.

[lowvolt]

Here's a typical 0.1uf 50 volt Nichicon ... rated at 85C/2000 hours .... just your average .24 cent part.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/UVR1H0R1MDD/?qs=M7hrKCd8BXQj2mhhsPyrXaB%2fRjYs5mmJ0eufJVbozZ4%3d

[Colonel Angus]

I built my p2p tubescreamer with these electros :

http://www.v-cap.com/oil-capacitors.php

:trollface:

[Paul Marossy]

Since the electrolytes evaporate, design life is most often rated in hours at a set temperature, for example, 2000 hours at 105 °C, which is the highest commonly used working temperature, although parts working up to 175 °C are available.[18] Standard inexpensive consumer-grade electrolytic capacitors are rated for 85 °C maximum working temperature. Life in the operational environment is dictated by the Law of Arrhenius, which dictates that the capacitor life is a function of temperature and DC voltage. As a rule of thumb, the life doubles for each 10 °C lower operating temperature.[19][17] In our example, it reaches 15 years at 45 °C (for caps rated at 105 °C). The operating temperature however is not just the ambient temperature. Ripple currents can increase it significantly. The actual operating temperature is a complex function of ambient temperature, air speed, ripple current frequency and amplitude,[19] and also affected by material thermal resistance and the surface area of the can case.[17] In general, high amplitude ripple currents shorten the life expectancy, whereas low frequency ripple is more detrimental than high frequency.

No, the field guide is not wrong. For every 10 deg C you go up in temperature, you shorten the life of the capacitor by half. The converse is also true, for every 10 deg C lower you go in temperature, the life expectancy of the capacitor doubles. I also have to point out that the quote starts out saying "High-quality aluminum electrolytics (computer-grade)". This is not what you can get at RadioShack. I'm talking about the commonly used 85 deg C "consumer grade" types, that's what 98% of DIYers will use.

[Colonel Angus]

AFAIK chemical reactions speed up in higher temperatures and slow down in cooler temperatures. It seems logical that the electrolytic solution would be no exception