Can your ears distinguish tants from alum/electros?

[Vince_b]

I built my p2p tubescreamer with these electros :

http://www.v-cap.com/oil-capacitors.php

:trollface:

Seriously, what kind of people is going to pay $200 for a 47uF cap. And what does it mean for a cap to be "transparent"? Can you see through it lol

The resulting series of proprietary materials and processes has produced what we believe is one of the most transparent and musical oil capacitors ever made.

[Paul Marossy]

I built my p2p tubescreamer with these electros :

http://www.v-cap.com/oil-capacitors.php

:trollface:

Seriously, what kind of people is going to pay $200 for a 47uF cap. And what does it mean for a cap to be "transparent"? Can you see through it lol

The resulting series of proprietary materials and processes has produced what we believe is one of the most transparent and musical oil capacitors ever made.

More BS that "justifies" the price tag. 

[Colonel Angus]

I just hope if a true double blind cap test ever happens that those are on the hit list. It would make me smile to see them roundly debunked.

[greaser_au]

an old thread: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91147.0

some tests have been done:
http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps.html

david

[brett]

Hi
If I'm not wrong, those tests were done at high voltage, and there wasn't any attempt to hear the claimed differences.
Until someone presents at least ONE piece of solid evidence that SOMEONE can hear a difference, we can assume that there is no (detectable) difference.
cheers
PS For me, if someone could pick the difference 18 times out of 20 in a double-blind test, I'd be totally convinced.

[Earthscum]

Until someone presents at least ONE piece of solid evidence that SOMEONE can hear a difference, we can assume that there is no (detectable) difference.
cheers

Well, go run towards a wall headfirst into a brick wall because you can assume that you could blow right through it, until someone else presents YOU with evidence otherwise... It's not wise to say "WE" can assume there is no difference until YOU are presented with evidence. (eta: I don't mean that personally towards you, I'm just using what you said as an example. It's been said by many others before, I just wanted to point out that a lack of perception by one doesn't necessarily mean a false perception or reality by another).

I can hear difference in Ceramic Vs. Poly, really easily. Take a T filter, LP in an op amp feedback. At higher gains where distortion is being filtered down, a Ceramic sounds "crispy" and "sizzly" compared to a poly. There's just some places that they do make a big difference. In my 1590A wah, I was constrained on space, and used a t-filter and actually used ceramics BECAUSE they gave a sharper resonance. As a matter of fact, that test kinda shows that ceramics indeed act differently, but I dunno... could do the same thing on my scope and probably get different results... and then, let's throw in old process vs. new process. NOS caps vs new manufacture.

I think the biggest argument isn't whether it's actually something you can hear, but are everyone's ears sensitive to the same tones as you, and can THEY hear it, and if so DOES IT MAKE A BIG ENOUGH DIFFERENCE TO MATTER? It's not totally dissimilar to what they found concerning cheap vs. expensive Wine, recently... http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/04/should-we-buy-expensive-wine/. Most people don't care, couldn't tell, or prefer the sugary cheaper wine. Only a few with "discerning" tastes report any significant "better" flavor. It has to do with the fact that my tastebuds don't taste the same way yours do. Ears age, tastebuds age, eyes age.

We're not robots, so I can't discount someone who thinks they can hear a difference... what we CAN do is ask them "Does it really matter THAT much?" and "So, lets go see how your stereo sounds at MY house" (great way to prove your point). If they still insist that they can hear a difference... sell them some blue dots. That, I think, is the true test of an Audio-Moron.

[DougH]

In the end, none of this makes any difference. When you're building stuff for yourself, put in a cap. If you don't like it put in another cap. Doesn't matter why/how you like one better than another.

I don't agonize over caps at all. What ends up in my builds is what was available at the surplus store on a given day. I did a cap shootout with one of my amps a couple years ago. Did a "before" and "after" soundclip with all conditions the same, except for actually measuring the caps (yeah I know... BIG omission but hang on...). I could have sworn the ceramic cap sounded smoother than the mica cap. Then I went back the very next day and listened to the clips again- surprise, my hearing completely reversed and the mica cap sounded smoother. Huh?!?

So much for *my* hearing... And yeah, you can say "that's just you" or I don't have "golden ears" or something. But in the end, my hearing/perception is all I care about. And it's certainly not consistent enough to make judgments about what affects what when it comes to this gnats-ass-level of nitpickery. I believe, for me anyway, these sonic effects lie mostly in the noise level of what we perceive, if we actually perceive them at all.

I know for myself when I've played the "component quality/type" game I've never heard much discernible difference. On the other hand, when I make changes based on V=IR and f=1/(2piRC) I hear dramatic differences that are consistent and repeatable. Using that technique, how to get "good tone" is so obvious it slaps you in the face. And it works every time. I know which approach I will continue to take.

[wavley]

There is also the point that just because YOU can't hear something doesn't mean SOMEONE ELSE can't.  Some folks have expertly trained ears, much like some folks have expertly trained palates for example, just because YOU can't taste difference in wines doesn't mean a Sommelier can't.  This is why folks pay guys like Bob Ludwig and Bob Clearmountain the big bucks for mastering or mixing their records.  Since I've taken up building a recording studio, learning, and training as an engineer I hear a lot of things that I didn't used to pay attention to, some of which are subtle differences at best, but sometimes it's these subtleties that make or break a record.

Personally I don't notice huge differences in caps in dirt boxes other than ceramics vs. film where there is a definite measurable difference, but clean circuits are a different story and even more so in full frequency response things like mic pres, mixers, and compressors. 

[Earthscum]

There is also the point that just because YOU can't hear something doesn't mean SOMEONE ELSE can't. 

+1 (I had just edited above to clarify that, as a matter of fact... I'm not really a jerk, I just communicate like one, lol.)

[merlinb]

On the other hand, when I make changes based on V=IR and f=1/(2piRC) I hear dramatic differences that are consistent and repeatable. Using that technique, how to get "good tone" is so obvious it slaps you in the face. And it works every time. I know which approach I will continue to take.

+1
It seems to be a general rule that the people who make bold claims about being able to hear the difference between capacitor types, silver wire and blue dots are invariably the ones who can't do maths or electronics. Since all they can do is blindly sub different mojo parts into their circuits, they need something to sound off about and sound clever. The entire planet's technology is designed by engineers, not cork sniffers. Coincidence?

[DougH]

On the other hand, when I make changes based on V=IR and f=1/(2piRC) I hear dramatic differences that are consistent and repeatable. Using that technique, how to get "good tone" is so obvious it slaps you in the face. And it works every time. I know which approach I will continue to take.

+1
It seems to be a general rule that the people who make bold claims about being able to hear the difference between capacitor types, silver wire and blue dots are invariably the ones who can't do maths or electronics. Since all they can do is blindly sub different mojo parts into their circuits, they need something to sound off about and sound clever. The entire planet's technology is designed by engineers, not cork sniffers. Coincidence?

You are saying what I was thinking. Broad specious claims about "quality" or one brand vs. another, esp in the era of internet groupthink, are easy to understand for people who don't understand basic electronics. It's one way of compartmentalizing the "effect" something supposedly has, without actually understanding what is going on. Get enough people to agree with you and your perception becomes "accurate".

Bridges aren't built and computers aren't designed by groupthink, rumor, or individual perception ("well, I feel that this bridge will support the weight because, well, it just seems that way today and besides, they used this mojo brand of concrete to construct it"). This kind of work is done using underlying principles that basically don't change.

I have never seen any demonstration of the myriad audiophilic claims that are made- ever seen a youtube vid demo-ing how superior a particular pricey power cord or wooden hi-fi stereo control knob is? Didn't think so. And you probably never will. It's usually either down to individual perception or urban-myth style anecdoting ("my buddy used these caps", "my wife's-brothers-grandsons-girlfriend said they were harvesting kidneys..."), etc. All these things play on the twilight-gray-noise-level area of our perceptions. If enough people are convinced they hear something, it will start to look like reality, even when it's not.

But that's not to say we don't have our individual perceptions about things. If you are convinced you prefer A over B, by all means, use A. Just don't try to convince me that there is something behind it, other than your perception.

[Paul Marossy]

I can hear difference in Ceramic Vs. Poly, really easily. Take a T filter, LP in an op amp feedback. At higher gains where distortion is being filtered down, a Ceramic sounds "crispy" and "sizzly" compared to a poly. There's just some places that they do make a big difference. In my 1590A wah, I was constrained on space, and used a t-filter and actually used ceramics BECAUSE they gave a sharper resonance. As a matter of fact, that test kinda shows that ceramics indeed act differently, but I dunno... could do the same thing on my scope and probably get different results... and then, let's throw in old process vs. new process. NOS caps vs new manufacture.

I think the biggest argument isn't whether it's actually something you can hear, but are everyone's ears sensitive to the same tones as you, and can THEY hear it, and if so DOES IT MAKE A BIG ENOUGH DIFFERENCE TO MATTER?

Try the same test with 1kV ceramic caps. The low voltage ones have much more hysteresis and are also the most non-linear of pretty much all capacitors. If I have to use ceramic caps, I always use the 1kV type.

Some people seem to think that the type of capacitors (like one type of film vs. another) make or break a circuit. I completely disagree. The subtlety of subtleties can easily be completely drowned out by a slight tweak of your guitar's tone control. Yeah, that was worth spending 3-5 times as much for those caps.  

[frank_p]

There was an article I've read last time this topic popped out.  What is more interesting imo is the historical point of view.  There was a time when ceramics were much more expensive than mica but need for productivity made the process for making ceramics much more cheap.  Knowledge base about ceramics went up and many ceramics were developed for the intended purpose. Dimension factor and price were obviously big specifications to work on and more ceramics were developed to respond to this demand.  Same thing goes with tantalums and aluminium oxyde or paper in oil vs polypropylene.  Of course this does not give you what quality factor we are echoing to. What I sincerely think is perhaps that blind test is totally useless with the amount of technological measuring equipment and knowledge scientist had accumulated over the years.  If someone is really knowledgeable about caps he will select them based on technical criterias of a specific model with all the other physical state of the device, not only the material it's made of.

[chromesphere]

The subtlety of subtleties can easily be completely drowned out by a slight tweak of your guitar's tone control. Yeah, that was worth spending 3-5 times as much for those caps.  

Interesting thread, a topic that comes up alot i think you will all agree.  I think, as consumers, we are taught, the more it costs the better it is. I always thought the cost of tant's was more to do with their small size then anything else?

Anyway a few comments in this thread reminded me of a comment i made in a guitar cable comparison video i made recently.  Paul Marossy's quote just reminded me of something i said in the video "Sneezing on your guitar tone control might make a bigger difference".  They are ever so subtle differences we're dealing with, and i personally would rather invest my money / time into something thats going to make a bigger difference to the overall sound of my set up / guitar pedal / circuit / etc.

I might be throwing a log on the fire here, but here goes anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROu2eFWJXTo&list=UUGhzS1GbX-yxyBrUJtnUMoA&index=1&feature=plcp

Paul

[brett]

Hi
Hey, Earthscum, I was saying that if you (or ANYBODY) can hear it, then I'll accept it's real. I definately don't expect to hear it myself.
But saying you can hear something is different to hearing it.
What say - I claim I can run 100 metres in 8 seconds. (I just don't like to do it in front of people.  )
If you were interested in sport, you might be very interested in that claim, and you may want some sort of physical evidence (ie a test).
Of course, as Doug says, nobody should be made to feel bad about what they do. We really shouldn't get hung up on claims and counter-claims. It's all just www chit-chat. Including this post.
cheers

[Earthscum]

I like the sports analogy... it made me think of skiing (something someone is more likely to on an occasional whim). To wrap up the general consensus, a ski shack is more likely to squeeze money out of the trendy guy with ultra-claims of benefits of using the signature items, etc., where the guy who's been skiing his whole life will have to, at some point, listen to the Bolognese Sauce spiel about it from trendy guy. And possibly his group of friends.... who will probably scoff at the seemingly ragged gear.

(and kids... skis are like snowboards, but there's one for each foot and they point forward. Titanic was a real event, not just a movie, and Queen did NOT steal Justin Beiber's song!  j/k of course)

[DougH]

What say - I claim I can run 100 metres in 8 seconds. (I just don't like to do it in front of people.  icon_wink)

a ski shack is more likely to squeeze money out of the trendy guy with ultra-claims of benefits of using the signature items, etc., where the guy who's been skiing his whole life will have to, at some point, listen to the Bolognese Sauce spiel about it from trendy guy.

Oh man, some gold nuggets in here... 

Thanks! 

[greaser_au]

Hi
If I'm not wrong, those tests were done at high voltage, and there wasn't any attempt to hear the claimed differences.

Brett,

An entirely fair statement at face value, however the small-signal effects are highly likely to be consistent with the high-voltage results (after all, what is happening at the extremes of the screen is also happening in the centre squares),  especially look at the zero-volts-bias performance of the tantalum (barf!). First-year audio servicing classes  assert (and 20+ years in  the general electronics servicing industry agrees ) that transfer functions showing non-linearities like those are not conducive to anything like audio fidelity.  That said, the whole point of this forum is to introduce non-linearities/distortions (maybe not buffers & switches)- though likely in a more controlled and predictable manner  

There is no accounting for taste, some audiophiles really enjoy the warmth and tone of the 0.5-1% distortion of their EL-34 pushpull Williamson-based amplifiers mixed with the crackle and grind of vinyl surface noise- and really hate the sterile and soul-less sound of a CD through a 0.0005%TID mosfet amp!!!. Other people are quire happy with the 5-10% distortion of the typical car audio system. In my opinion this basically says that listening tests are no way to determine what is good for a signal path. Conversely measurements are no way to tell whether someone will like what something sounds like.  

david

[Ronan]

Cap threads are truly a waste. Stick in there what you want and try other types of caps and see for yourself. In different circuits, some types of caps may work better than others. It can be circuit dependent. Not worthy of a thread IMHO. Just friggin plug some caps in and see for yourself - too easy

[Colonel Angus]

This is getting deep. Makes me think of Zizec ... something about evaluating the promise of your life based on being a potential customer, ie buying your life back in the form of the experience of owning a car, visiting a ski lodge or building a p2p tube screamer with $100 OIMP caps. So what is your potential value as a customer of your life?