The RG Rules Thread

[Colonel Angus]

Thanks TG, Joe and earthscum. That spills the beans on the topic pretty well. It sounds like the practical ie- not pete cornish custom built- solution is a solid buffer pedal for now.

[joegagan]

yes. the other thing i did not mention is that when i have a multi-pedal board ( mix of commercial and self-made peds), i like to have a SHO style boost in line to bring things up. location in the chain depends on the overall line-up.

[joegagan]

when the bypass is designed properly.

that is the crux of the problem. we don't know what the designers were thinking when they designed all these pedals.
i guess the discussion  branches off in 2 directions.

1. considerations for designing and building a pedal , or pedals where the player knows that the designer used good practices, or within a system designed by someone who understands the whole and chooses accordingly.

2. considerations for overall use, where the player uses pedals from many sources, and swaps pedals in and out.

[Paul Marossy]

i believe that the results of RG's test are accurate, for what the test was. but in the real world, you have guys with 6 to 10 ( boss, IBZ etc etc ) pedals on their boards. this is a sh*tload of buffer stages. a sh*tload of caps. could be good, could be bad, but ultimately, it does something to the tone.      when i ask these guys to unplug their pedalboard and plug straight into their amp, they are often amazed at the fidelity that is restored.

So turn up the treble at a the amp a little bit. Works for me.  

What Pete Cornish addresses is all the cummulative losses from the cables. If everything is true bypass and nothing is buffered, you'll notice all the cable losses too. You can make an argument either way.

Another reason I tend to like FET flip-flop type bypass schemes is because they don't make popping noises 98% of the time. Mechanical true bypass switching can definitely have this problem. Electronic switching is way quicker than a mechanical switch is. I think mini-relays will be the next big thing we see in pedals.

I think the power failure argument is stupid. If the power fails, you ain't gonna have an amp to play out of anyway.  

[joegagan]

it isn't just treble.

[Paul Marossy]

it isn't just treble.

Yeah, I know. Point I'm making is that you can compensate by tweaking the EQ on your amp.

I don't know if I would use the word "fidelity", I think it's more likely "more dynamic". The most interactive scenario possible is when you plug straight into an amp, it's 100% "touch sensitive" and responds to your playing dynamics without any hindrances - like dreaded electronic bypassing in several daisy chained pedals or 50-75 equivalent feet of cables in a 100% true bypassing scheme. One could make also make an argument for running effects in parallel as opposed to serial routing too I suppose.

[puretube]

... I think mini-relays will be the next big thing we see in pedals.

I think the power failure argument is stupid. If the power fails, you ain't gonna have an amp to play out of anyway.  

Mini Relays to be found in every E-H Tube-pedal... (auto-true-bypass @ power-fail...)
(and in some sterero-pedals, too).

The power-failure argument relates to drummers/saxophonists/singers stumbling over those thin 9V-traps,
and guitarists/bassplayers having forgot to replace batteries before the gig...

[Paul Marossy]

The power-failure argument relates to drummers/saxophonists/singers stumbling over those thin 9V-traps,
and guitarists/bassplayers having forgot to replace batteries before the gig...

Ha ha, yeah drummers and bass players...

Well, in my mind, it's foolish to keep spending $4-5 a pop on 9V batteries all the time when you could just use a power supply. Your amp has to have AC power anyway. That way you also NEVER have to worry about a battery dying in the middle of your gig.  

The only 9V batteries I ever use are in my Parker Fly & Nitefly.

[joegagan]

i'm getting alkaline 9Vs at lowe's for under a dollar each. i have to buy a 25 pack tho. 20 bucks.

[Paul Marossy]

i'm getting alkaline 9Vs at lowe's for under a dollar each. i have to buy a 25 pack tho. 20 bucks.

That's pretty cheap. I think I pay $16 for a pack of 10 or 12 at Costco. Last time I checked a two pack at the local grocery store is like $5, so OK $2.50 a pop.

I can't do it, I see it as flushing money down the toilet and filling up landfills.

[zambo]

I have a Ken Fischer inspired amp and it doesnt sound as good when I have anything in the chain usually. I am not opposed to buffers but I think the fet switching, mini relay whatever sounds pretty interesting. I dont like the blue 3pdt. Its loud and seems like it should have better action. If it were a guitar i would sell it. Whats a good thread to start on for that fet switching? Thanks for all the insight btw. I swear I dont have gold plated ear lobes! 

[joegagan]

the 3pdts are mechanically loud. i have heard of professionals who can't use them at their quieter gigs because the switchnoise detracts from the music.

also, a lot of them i have used have weird intermittent operation. they often make the click sound but fail to fully switch internally, leaving no guitar sound coming through until re switched 2X

[Earthscum]

I have to give props to the DPDT that Mammoth sells. I grabbed a couple because I needed one for my wah (shortest switch I could find). I can't hear it switching in and out at all. I used the other one on my Nurse Quacky and it is the same way. I just don't care as much for the feel of the switch, but so far so good. I expect the metal cap to pop off before anything else goes.

I've been lucky so far with switches, but about half I've used I can hear it switching. It has never been an issue, though, because it's so quiet. My buddy's FF clone didn't pop on me at all, but when he got it into his rig it started up. I just didn't have a pull down resistor at the input. I can still hear switch noise though, but it doesn't bug him at all. It is more of a micro-phonic noise to my ears more than a popping or snapping sound.

[Electron Tornado]

All of this kind of begs the questions -

1 What consitutes a good buffer?

2. How do you retain fidelity with multiple buffers in bypass?

3. How do you retain fidelity with multiple mechanical true bypass pedals?

4. How do you retain fidelity with a mix of both?





Oops, forgot a period earlier, so here it is ----> . <------

(Punctuation, the cornerstone of any good post.)

[Earthscum]

All of this kind of begs the questions -

1 What consitutes a good buffer?

2. How do you retain fidelity with multiple buffers in bypass?

3. How do you retain fidelity with multiple mechanical true bypass pedals?

4. How do you retain fidelity with a mix of both?





Oops, forgot a period earlier, so here it is ----> . <------

(Punctuation, the cornerstone of any good post.)

FX loop switcher. Switch in groups as you need them, otherwise they are left out... like a group for the pedals you use for one song, instead of having that group in the entire time, bypass the entire group with one switch.

[joegagan]

... and in a perfect world, enough money to have duplicates of every pedal you would want in each loop.

[Earthscum]

...and a personal roadie. 

[Electron Tornado]

FX loop switcher. Switch in groups as you need them, otherwise they are left out... like a group for the pedals you use for one song, instead of having that group in the entire time, bypass the entire group with one switch.

Whoa! And like Joe said, have duplicates of every pedal, etc.

When I build something for myself I try to put as many options on a pedal as I can to make it as versatile as practicable. I would prefer one of each pedal on a board, but with the capability to change settings as I needed. I think someone came up with something like this with the ability to vary pot settings with the tap of a foot somewhere not long ago.

But my questions were more about what makes a good buffer, and buffers vs mechanical bypass.


This is a thread about Alice...... 

[Perrow]

This is a thread about Alice...... 

When I opened this thread up the first time I was sure it'd be about "R.G. Keens laws", I was a bit disappointed at first, but it's turning out to be a pretty good thread.

[head_spaz]

This is a thread about Alice...... 
and her restaurant?