Neovibe Debug Help

[lonewolf]

how are you attempting to remove components? are you using a de-soldering braid? if not you need to get one or you will damage the board...just avoid the radio shack brand instead go to a real electronics distributor..small bear has a wick that worked great..you just lay the braid on the joint and heat it with the iron and it will suck up all the solder..if done right the parts will fall right out..one side of the 39-40 resistors are connected ..check that side..it should read 11.7 v..Q 11 and 12 is a darlington pair..check continuity between r 39 and both collectors (11-12) then check between r 40 and the base of Q 11..then check Q 11 emitter to Q 12 base..finally Q12 emitter to r 44 and r 46 then r 46 to ground ..when you get the emitter of Q 12 to read 10v instead of 25 you will have solved that problem..dont test continuity with the thing on...just test voltages with it powered emitter is the arrow ..base is the flat vertical line ..collector points up and goes to the V+...

[R.G.]

Well measuring between Q12 and 44,45,46 shows 0.01 resistance, assuming that's the zero or bottom line for my multimeter. And as for the new readings I guess
Q12:
C = 27.5
B = 26.5
E = 26.6

OK. That was step 1. If Q12 emitter is connected to those resistors, then there is an open somewhere else. I believe it's R46 that goes from Q12 emitter to ground. BTW, you have to do the zero-resistance test with power off; power messes up the results. I would now check that the end of R46 that is NOT connected to Q12 goes to ground - I suspect that it does not. If it does, measure the resistance of R46. It could have been damaged while being inserted.

And R.G any explanation as to why the bulb doesn't work now? It's only when I started probing transistors that the bulb just stays on now, doesn't respond to depth/speed anymore but it does flicker and short out when messing with Q12. Oh and will switching the transistor out make a difference?

Sure. But you won't like it. You accidentally damaged something by probing with power on. It's always a risk, and it happens to me sometimes. too. Don't sweat that now. We'll get there. Focus on why Q12 isn't right.

There is always the possibility of consequential damage from debugging. We used to refer to first prototypes for testing purposes as "victims". 

[tr1p1n]

So your saying theres something im going to have to order? And I hope the board isn't ruined, paid over 100 bucks for this stuff, second time around I couldn't stand myself to do it again, just save up for the megavibe... even though clips i've heard of the neo are like 1000000 times better (in my opnion) :/ well anyways on top of my stupidity with removing transistors, this whole time I didn't even realize J1 wasn't soldered. Like it was right in front of my face... wish i realized that when the bulb actually worked and what not, all I would have had to do was figure out why there was this loud wahhh coming from my amp, but then again that may have been the problem. I don't know but anyways, C19 still has a higher - v then +... this a problem?

R44 and R45 are at 6.9k even though there supposed to 220k and R46 is bouncing around from 3.6k to 5k.

Then again im so frustrated i really don't know what im doing.. if what I even did there was right..

[tr1p1n]

how are you attempting to remove components? are you using a de-soldering braid? if not you need to get one or you will damage the board...just avoid the radio shack brand instead go to a real electronics distributor..small bear has a wick that worked great..you just lay the braid on the joint and heat it with the iron and it will suck up all the solder..if done right the parts will fall right out..one side of the 39-40 resistors are connected ..check that side..it should read 11.7 v..Q 11 and 12 is a darlington pair..check continuity between r 39 and both collectors (11-12) then check between r 40 and the base of Q 11..then check Q 11 emitter to Q 12 base..finally Q12 emitter to r 44 and r 46 then r 46 to ground ..when you get the emitter of Q 12 to read 10v instead of 25 you will have solved that problem..dont test continuity with the thing on...just test voltages with it powered emitter is the arrow ..base is the flat vertical line ..collector points up and goes to the V+...

Continuity is good between all those points and im not sure what side but 27v r39 and 19v r40 on the right side of the resistor that has traces to q11 & q12 and 15v for both on the left. Oh and as for removing the parts, this craptastic turkey baster type suction thing from you guessed it... radio shack. I'll get the braid tonight from smallbear, thank god there in new york as me too. Hopefully between you and R.G we can figure what new parts I need and what to do before my head explodes from the neovibe not working and all this crash course stuff on debugging and what not. Even if it is basic stuff, regardless its something i'd like continue to do in the future if I can live that long haha.

[lonewolf]

I use the techspray pro wick..you should be able to find one at a nte distributor..small bear sells one that works great as well..check continuity of every connection of Q 11-12 including r40/r44/both sides of r46(to Q12 emitter on one side  and ground on the other) left side of r39-40 should be around 11.7..right side of r39 connects to the collectors of Q 11-12 that should be between 17- 20 volts..27 is pretty high ..what are the specs on the power source?

[R.G.]

So your saying theres something im going to have to order?

No, I'm saying that there's more wrong now than just the problem we're working on. Maybe you'll need to order parts, maybe not. Depends on what the problem is.

And I hope the board isn't ruined, paid over 100 bucks for this stuff, second time around I couldn't stand myself to do it again, just save up for the megavibe... even though clips i've heard of the neo are like 1000000 times better (in my opnion) :/

People get tired of me saying "I told you so" I think, but the fact that buying effects is cheaper than building your own in many cases was listed in the very first edition of the "Guitar Effects FAQ" at geofex.com. See http://geofex.com/effxfaq/bldfx.htm#cheaper. That was first written in early 1999.

However, you're getting good value for your money. You're better now than when you started. You are educating yourself at a furious rate, and that makes YOU better. The right approach is to note that you're learning much more cheaply than you'd find this out in any kind of school. And you're learning to deal with frustration and what patience feels like. It's a hard lesson when one is young.

this whole time I didn't even realize J1 wasn't soldered. Like it was right in front of my face...

You would be amazed how many times we get posts here like that. It's also a learning experience - human beings have selective blindness. It can't be fully fixed, so it's best to learn and accept it, and figure out methodical ways to make you notice what you might not otherwise. That is in fact what most of the "what to do when it doesn't work" stuff is for. It forces you to not keep checking what you've already checked, and to look everywhere. "What to do when it doesn't work" is as much a psychological process as a technical one.

I don't know but anyways, C19 still has a higher - v then +... this a problem?

Yes. In this case, we know why. It's because something is wrong with Q12.

R44 and R45 are at 6.9k even though there supposed to 220k

That's because they're in parallel with the speed pot.

and R46 is bouncing around from 3.6k to 5k.

That's a symptom of the problem with Q12.

Then again im so frustrated i really don't know what im doing.. if what I even did there was right..

Good - you realize that your emotional condition can keep you from seeing things.

I suggest you stop messing with it for a day or so. Chill out. You'll feel better and probably do a better job when you come back.

There are some things to do, but if you can't see things for the frustration, you can't do them right.

[tr1p1n]

I use the techspray pro wick..you should be able to find one at a nte distributor..small bear sells one that works great as well..check continuity of every connection of Q 11-12 including r40/r44/both sides of r46(to Q12 emitter on one side  and ground on the other) left side of r39-40 should be around 11.7..right side of r39 connects to the collectors of Q 11-12 that should be between 17- 20 volts..27 is pretty high ..what are the specs on the power source?

Everything seems OK with continuity and as for the power source its a small bear electro-harminox 24V DC wall wart.

[tr1p1n]

Alright, just hoping to get them ordered soon if needed. Smallbear is about 4 hours from me  
But yeah I understand what you're saying but my frustration stems from the sheer excitement of this, so eager to get this working let alone be proud of something I made with my hands even if it wasn't "entirely" made by me. With that being said there's only one direction we can go to accomplish this and that's forward. And with you're consent I'd love to keep doing just that.

[tr1p1n]

how are you attempting to remove components? are you using a de-soldering braid? if not you need to get one or you will damage the board...just avoid the radio shack brand instead go to a real electronics distributor..small bear has a wick that worked great..you just lay the braid on the joint and heat it with the iron and it will suck up all the solder..if done right the parts will fall right out..one side of the 39-40 resistors are connected ..check that side..it should read 11.7 v..Q 11 and 12 is a darlington pair..check continuity between r 39 and both collectors (11-12) then check between r 40 and the base of Q 11..then check Q 11 emitter to Q 12 base..finally Q12 emitter to r 44 and r 46 then r 46 to ground ..when you get the emitter of Q 12 to read 10v instead of 25 you will have solved that problem..dont test continuity with the thing on...just test voltages with it powered emitter is the arrow ..base is the flat vertical line ..collector points up and goes to the V+...

Well not sure what to do so I checked and rechecked everything you asked, checked continuity along every trace (kinda somewhat understand the board better, well not as to what things do but more so has to what's connected to what). R.G suggested it's R46 not connected to ground but I ran all the way around the board with that checking connections, all OK. I re-read the voltages again, all the same, nothing has changed between Q11 and 12. Do you think the fact that I had J1 missing up until yesterday may have damaged something? Eager to here what you and R.G suggest next as I'm still confused as to where to go now. Guess I'm gonna spend the next hour or so checking the parts and there orientation even though I'm quite sure there OK (well now at least).

[lonewolf]

did you connect the open connection on J1? did it affect the hum?..the Q11-12 are in the oscillator part of the circuit not the audio path...you should get a clean signal if the jack was the problem...did you make sure the polarity of all the electrolytics is right?..you could check the color codes on the resistors to make sure you did not make a mistake there..I check resistors with a meter before I install them to be sure..(cheap insurance)I have gotten resistors that did not match the color codes..you can find a color code calculator online...just type in the colors and it calculates the resistance for you..

[R.G.]

OK, this isn't working. Time for some specific tests.

1. Get a few spare transistors. Two are probably enough, get half a dozen just in case. You'll use them eventually if you keep on building pedals.
2. Use your wire clippers and clip off Q11 and Q12 on the component side. Just clip the pins right under the body.
3. Remove the old pins. Set the board up on its edge some way that doesn't involve either of your hands holding it in place. A helper or some kind of clamp, something to hold it where you can get at the pins on one side and the solder pads on the other. Hold a pin with needle nose pliers and pull gently while heating the pad. The pin will come out. Do this to all pins of Q11/Q12. Then whittle down a wooden toothpick so it would fit through the PCB hole. On each of the six Q11/Q12 pins, do: place the end of the toothpick on the component side right over the hole, on the solid solder; on the solder side, melt the solder with the tip of an iron. When the solder melts, poke the toothpick through the hole and twist it gently to clear the hole while removing the soldering iron.
4. Examine the holes by eye and ohmmeter testing to be sure they're not shorted by solder threads. The two collectors should show zero ohms, the others should not.
5. Set your meter to DC volts, clip the black lead to a ground point, and turn on the power to the unit. Probe all six holes of the empty Q11/12 positions and report them back here.

[tr1p1n]

did you connect the open connection on J1? did it affect the hum?..the Q11-12 are in the oscillator part of the circuit not the audio path...you should get a clean signal if the jack was the problem...did you make sure the polarity of all the electrolytics is right?..you could check the color codes on the resistors to make sure you did not make a mistake there..I check resistors with a meter before I install them to be sure..(cheap insurance)I have gotten resistors that did not match the color codes..you can find a color code calculator online...just type in the colors and it calculates the resistance for you..

Yeah I connected it and as for the hum, no. Still just a loud annoying hum, may still even have the jacks wired wrong if that would even cause that. But then again I don't think so, cause when I do have them hooked up I can take both the jacks and like lay them on top of each other for the hum to stop and get a clean signal but of course no effect. The electrolytic's are all right and what not, except for C19 which R.G said is a symptom of Q12 being messed up. I don't quite understand the color codes yet but I'll check online even though I'm not sure that's the problem, well them being in the wrong place at least not sure about being damaged. When I first started building I carefully checked and double checked before soldering. I'll check back though when I re-check the resistors.

[tr1p1n]

OK, this isn't working. Time for some specific tests.

1. Get a few spare transistors. Two are probably enough, get half a dozen just in case. You'll use them eventually if you keep on building pedals.
2. Use your wire clippers and clip off Q11 and Q12 on the component side. Just clip the pins right under the body.
3. Remove the old pins. Set the board up on its edge some way that doesn't involve either of your hands holding it in place. A helper or some kind of clamp, something to hold it where you can get at the pins on one side and the solder pads on the other. Hold a pin with needle nose pliers and pull gently while heating the pad. The pin will come out. Do this to all pins of Q11/Q12. Then whittle down a wooden toothpick so it would fit through the PCB hole. On each of the six Q11/Q12 pins, do: place the end of the toothpick on the component side right over the hole, on the solid solder; on the solder side, melt the solder with the tip of an iron. When the solder melts, poke the toothpick through the hole and twist it gently to clear the hole while removing the soldering iron.
4. Examine the holes by eye and ohmmeter testing to be sure they're not shorted by solder threads. The two collectors should show zero ohms, the others should not.
5. Set your meter to DC volts, clip the black lead to a ground point, and turn on the power to the unit. Probe all six holes of the empty Q11/12 positions and report them back here.

Still working on removing them but I think I see the problem or a problem, isn't there supposed to be an orange trace between R40 and Q11 base? when I double checked continuity (this morning) it was connecting, now when I have removed the pin it looks like there never was even a trace there to begin with.

Finished removing, testing and have new transistors at hand.

Ohmmeter test shows 0 for emitter and base (wasn't sure how to test exactly so i stuck a probe in one emitter and one in the other) but for the collectors it's hard to get an exact reading sometimes it stays at 10 other times it up to 200 something for a bit. Mostly around 35.5 - 45.

Q11
C=27.5v
B=0
E=0

Q12
C=27.5v
B=0
E=0

And another thing, I did mention before that a contact ring thing came off of Q11 emitter (bottom of PCB) now I notice it's also missing from the top and Q11 base is missing too just from the bottom. Not to mention Q12 emitter is so warped, it's still on there I just mean it looks like it's about to come off. Also not sure if it has any correlation or it's just because I removed the transistors but while measuring voltage just went around the caps again and now C16 seems to be messed up.

[lonewolf]

unless you really mess up the board is repairable..you should DEFINATLY socket anything you remove..you wont regret it and I socket every transistor, IC and even some caps...if you socket those parts you cant fry them with heat..and r 40 does have a trace to Q11 base(on the layout)

[tr1p1n]

unless you really mess up the board is repairable..you should DEFINATLY socket anything you remove..you wont regret it and I socket every transistor, IC and even some caps...if you socket those parts you cant fry them with heat..and r 40 does have a trace to Q11 base(on the layout)

So your telling me this is fixable?  And what do you mean socket anything I remove? but as for the trace how can I fix that? put a line of solder down or something? and what about the little metal contact rings as I said one of em is missing on both sides.

[lonewolf]

order some resistors from tayda..1/4 watt..you can cut the wires off and use them to make traces to repair breaks...the bulb driver is stressed and sometimes fails..you should check out the forum vibe..it has all of the mods(darlington bulb driver/output mix mod) getting this circuit to work is easy..getting it to sound like hendrix/marino/trower is something else..when you remove these parts you can solder sockets in their place..then you can tweek things until they sound right..without a soldering iron..

[tr1p1n]

order some resistors from tayda..1/4 watt..you can cut the wires off and use them to make traces to repair breaks...the bulb driver is stressed and sometimes fails..you should check out the forum vibe..it has all of the mods(darlington bulb driver/output mix mod) getting this circuit to work is easy..getting it to sound like hendrix/marino/trower is something else..when you remove these parts you can solder sockets in their place..then you can tweek things until they sound right..without a soldering iron..

I have a crap load of resistor leads already, been throwing them in this bag, knew i might need them again haha. Yeah R.G said something about my bulb, one thing or another that I already may have damaged something but who knows yet If i do need something knew. Anyways, yeah i've read a lot about these mods all over these forums. Read about 150 posts regarding issues and what not (only found one that was similar to mine) but I guess he got it fixed after his first post. But as for the sound, hendrix is ideal when it comes to the uni-vibe (in my opinion) but regardless the vibe sound, getting it sound like those guys is all in your hands. But before I'd like to do these mods, I just want to hear this thing work first then I can see where to go from there to tweak to taste.  

Forgot to mention, any idea as where to go now regarding what R.G said? He had me remove Q11,12 but the collector voltages are still the same, I'm not sure what exactly he was looking for.

[lonewolf]

small bear sells the 3 pin transistor sockets among others..you can find them on ebay as well..the tayda and other chinese 1/4 w resistors have smaller leads and are more suitable for repairing/making traces..and you can get 50 of them for 99 cents shipped!!

[tr1p1n]

small bear sells the 3 pin transistor sockets among others..you can find them on ebay as well..the tayda and other chinese 1/4 w resistors have smaller leads and are more suitable for repairing/making traces..and you can get 50 of them for 99 cents shipped!!

I'll defiantly look into buying them but as I said before any ideas on the issue at hand? R.G had me take out Q11,12, unsure as to what to do next....should I wait for his call? I'm eager to make progress, but the only thing I can think of to do would be changing the transistors but pretty sure that wouldn't make a difference.

[lonewolf]

he wants to make sure there is no issues with those transistors..look at mammoth electronics online..they sell those 3 pin tranny sockets for 45 cents as compared to small bear at 1.09 they have better prices and usually ship the same day