Turkey Day SHOOTOUT Competition

[Govmnt_Lacky]

I really do not think we need to get into a tit for tat debate on what is digital by definition and what is not. Simply put, those of us who have been around for a while should be able to interpret the ruling on this and be able to build. Those who have not probably are not into that realm yet and therefore have no questions about it.
Bottom line is that a decision has been made and it seems pretty reasonable.

@defaced

I hope you do decide to enter. If you do, please remember that there is a deadline for entry fees.

[defaced]

Best of luck to everyone.  I will not be entering. 

[pinkjimiphoton]

sorry, defaced... we've gotta stick to our guns on this one i think, so everyone has a fair shot at it.

[pinkjimiphoton]

here's the revised SPT for the sterno face i'm donating...there's another video, too, but ummmmm.... didn't realize the battery in the fuzz was dead..

a whole 1.5 volts, and the fuzz still worked, tho the led didn't.

here's the thing at 9v:

just a taste...if ya wanna see the whole thing,  hit my youtube.com/666pinkster page.

[pinkjimiphoton]

sorry guys, but greg, dino and i discussed this at length...

this competition is ANALOG, THRU HOLE COMPONENTS ONLY.

molesting a cmos chip or whatever? fine... but no digital, period. sorry, but maybe in the future if we do this again, we can allow that.

but in this case,the rules are the rules, and are written in stone.

no arduinos, no logic circuits, no DSP or MCU etc... if it isn't being used in an analog fashion, fuhgeddaboubit.

gotta be analog bro.

and rob.... no extra points for calling yourself barbara.

guys...the rules are the rules. read 'em and weep, but that's just the way it f'n is this time out.

next time, we'll do hardware VST hosts or something... lol

What's with the attitude - and not just you, everyone being condescending about me asking this question?  I'm simply asking questions so I don't do alot of work for nothing.  

absolutely zero attitude here, boss...sorry if ya feel picked on, it is completely unintentional. i find the topic of your idea absolutely fascinating, and would love to see it!!!
but for this competition, we're sticking to our guns.

no attitude... at most joking around. rock on man, sorry you won't be entering. FWIW, we DID learn something from this, as your idea was something we didn't even consider whatsoever... but if it falls into a digital realm,  we already decided we can't go there, as it could give a distinctly unfair advantage  over simpler designs.

a big part of this is trying to keep it user friendly for everyone... thru hole analog stuff everyone can do, SMD and digital are beyond the majority of the target we're hoping to get to participate.

i am very sorry if you felt i was giving you a tude, brother... that ain't me. i AM an a$$ at times, for sure, but i never am looking to hurt anybody.

peace man

[defaced]

Sounds good.  Thanks Jimi.

[pinkjimiphoton]

all good bro. peace!!!

[slacker]

I appreciate that given my earlier comment I should be bitch slapped for this, but can we have a simple yes or no answer on PT2399s.

Many people don't know they're digital and many more, including me, wouldn't have considered them off limits under rule 8, they would certainly be within the spirit of the competition. Presumably they fall under "nothing digital". Wasn't planning on using one, but I can see how someone else might.

Apologies if that earlier post appeared to be aimed at you defaced it wasn't intended to be. I hadn't seen your preceding post when I wrote it, must have posted at the same time, I was using tapatalk and it doesn't warn of new posts.

[Jdansti]

I appreciate that given my earlier comment I should be bitch slapped for this, but can we have a simple yes or no answer on PT2399s.

Many people don't know they're digital and many more, including me, wouldn't have considered them off limits under rule 8, they would certainly be within the spirit of the competition. Presumably they fall under "nothing digital". Wasn't planning on using one, but I can see how someone else might.

Apologies if that earlier post appeared to be aimed at you defaced it wasn't intended to be. I hadn't seen your preceding post when I wrote it, must have posted at the same time, I was using tapatalk and it doesn't warn of new posts.

Ian- Great minds think alike!  I had typed the following earlier and then got called away for "real work" before I could post it.  I'm just going to post it as is even though you covered some of this already.
------------------------------

Thanks to everyone who is making this contest possible. I appreciate your time, commitment and donations. 

At the risk of being unpopular, allow me to beat a dead horse with one more whack.  

 I recognize that when making rules, it's difficult to be perfectly clear on every conceivable issue without involving attorneys and a 10 page set of rules.  That's why the judges have asked that we ask questions. I think the judges tried to answer the digital question, but there does remain a minor point that I think can be answered yes or no. 

Many of the common components we use on our "analog" boards are in fact digital components. For example, the rules would allow one to build a reverb using a PT2399 chip. But the PT2399 is a digital component.  From the data sheet: 

"Digital processing is used to generate the delay time..."
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/PrincetonTechnologyCorporation/mXyzsyzt.pdf

Tap Tempo is another example:

"The TTT uses a digital microcontroller to do the tap tempo and create the waveforms. It then uses an optocoupler to control volume. The audio path remains analog all the way through..."
http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/tap-tempo-tremolo/

So let me ask two yes or no questions of the judges:

1) Components that are are utilized as analog in/analog out devices are allowed.    Example: PT2399 and Tap Tempo. Correct?

2) Components that are utilized as digital in and/or digital out are not allowed. 
 Example: Micro controllers that digitally communicate with other components.  Correct?

Thank you for flying with us and have a lovely day.  


@Defaced, if you decide to remain on the sidelines for this one, I hope you'll compete when we have a contest that focuses on digital.

[pinkjimiphoton]

i would imagine a 2399 is fine.  i think we mean digital logic kind of circuits, not a simple chip being used for audio purpose.

i will agree with whatever the other judges decide.

that is a very relevant question in light of earlier posts....good call.

to me, it would seem that's valid...perhaps we need to revisit defaced's request...

when is digital used? is it for audio processing,  or is it used for logic? it's fuzzy to me, i am far from an EE.

i think it may be that we need to differentiate between DSP and being used as a component...

i personally know so little about this, i will take a backseat to dino and greg....

hey defaced...don't give up yet. i may have mis-spoken.

[pinkjimiphoton]

I appreciate that given my earlier comment I should be bitch slapped for this, but can we have a simple yes or no answer on PT2399s.

Many people don't know they're digital and many more, including me, wouldn't have considered them off limits under rule 8, they would certainly be within the spirit of the competition. Presumably they fall under "nothing digital". Wasn't planning on using one, but I can see how someone else might.

Apologies if that earlier post appeared to be aimed at you defaced it wasn't intended to be. I hadn't seen your preceding post when I wrote it, must have posted at the same time, I was using tapatalk and it doesn't warn of new posts.

Ian- Great minds think alike!  I had typed the following earlier and then got called away for "real work" before I could post it.  I'm just going to post it as is even though you covered some of this already.
------------------------------

Thanks to everyone who is making this contest possible. I appreciate your time, commitment and donations. 

At the risk of being unpopular, allow me to beat a dead horse with one more whack.  

 I recognize that when making rules, it's difficult to be perfectly clear on every conceivable issue without involving attorneys and a 10 page set of rules.  That's why the judges have asked that we ask questions. I think the judges tried to answer the digital question, but there does remain a minor point that I think can be answered yes or no. 

Many of the common components we use on our "analog" boards are in fact digital components. For example, the rules would allow one to build a reverb using a PT2399 chip. But the PT2399 is a digital component.  From the data sheet: 

"Digital processing is used to generate the delay time..."
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/PrincetonTechnologyCorporation/mXyzsyzt.pdf

Tap Tempo is another example:

"The TTT uses a digital microcontroller to do the tap tempo and create the waveforms. It then uses an optocoupler to control volume. The audio path remains analog all the way through..."
http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/tap-tempo-tremolo/

So let me ask two yes or no questions of the judges:

1) Components that are are utilized as analog in/analog out devices are allowed.    Example: PT2399 and Tap Tempo. Correct?

2) Components that are utilized as digital in and/or digital out are not allowed. 
 Example: Micro controllers that digitally communicate with other components.  Correct?

Thank you for flying with us and have a lovely day.  


@Defaced, if you decide to remain on the sidelines for this one, I hope you'll compete when we have a contest that focuses on digital.

john, thanks man...you just nailed what i wish i was eloquent enough to say.

i think if being used in the analog domain, as is typical in guitar effect applications, my vote would change to yes.

i don't think they should be used to digitally create a "sound"....but if they are used to CREATE an effect, ie as an analog device...

man... i'm bowing out of this one, cuz i don't understand it enough to say.

[defaced]

Apologies if that earlier post appeared to be aimed at you defaced it wasn't intended to be. I hadn't seen your preceding post when I wrote it, must have posted at the same time, I was using tapatalk and it doesn't warn of new posts.

No worries. 

hey defaced...don't give up yet. i may have mis-spoken.

I'm all ears, and true to spirit, I'm workin my case because this is a cool idea I have

So let me ask two yes or no questions of the judges:

1) Components that are are utilized as analog in/analog out devices are allowed.    Example: PT2399 and Tap Tempo. Correct?

2) Components that are utilized as digital in and/or digital out are not allowed.
Example: Micro controllers that digitally communicate with other components.  Correct?

My 2 cents (no I'm not a judge, and yes I have a vested interest in the outcome, but well, I'm an engineer and working out definitions are part of what we're really good at):

-I think your PT2399 example is spot on, but as you point out, doesn't comply with rule 8 because it's DSP. 
-The TT is a micro-controller, takes special hardware to program (not a tool a novice builder would have), and by definition, takes a digital input (stomps are just pulses of high/low, i.e., digital).  I could entertain arguments that the output is analog (square wave out gets a little sticky).
-But, and you'll love this one.  By the second definition in your post, and the current wording of Rule 8, the flip/flop circuit used in Boss pedals that takes the momentary stomp and toggles the effect is digital.  It's discrete digital, but digital none the less.  Or taking it a step further, as the rules stand, you couldn't say for example, use two inverters of a 4049 to build a flip/flop to control the on/off of the effect and the rest as distortion stages.   

Are all of these common in pedal building?  Yes.  Are they all digital by definition? Yes.  Per the current Rule 8 and the comments thus far on the topic be should ALL of these circuit/elements be barred from competition?  IMO, yes - they're "digital" by definition.  But as I said in a previous post, "digital" in the pedal vernacular is different than "digital" as a technology, and that point is a BIG sticking point (as we're seeing). 

So engineer's definition-o-rant over. For once in a lifetime, I'll offer my opinion.  Do I personally think the PT2399, TT, BBD clocks, Belton reverb bricks, flip/flops and other common digital elements used in basically analog pedals be allowed?  Yes - but only if my commercial off the shelf bone stock cook book digital control circuit is allowed too.  Why?  All of them are easy to acquire and build.  None of them require special hardware (assuming you buy a TT chip), SMT, or are outside the scope of what a novice could reasonably build - and from my readings of the rules and the judge's comments, that's the primary thrust of this comp and part of what Rule 8 was intended to work toward.

In all honesty, the control circuit I want to use I learned as a novice because someone posted it to a thread I made over at the Music Electronics Forum about four years ago (+1 point if someone can find it and post a link before the deadline to enter passes).  Oh, and it's also a non-MCU way to build a very popular pedal controlling accessory, and I planned on posting the schem with submission so it benefits the community and isn't just a show boat thing (it's not THAT impressive really, you'll probably wonder why I even argued this hard for it).  Lastly (I'm running out of breath, I promise), the same chip from a different TTL logic family has been discussed here before, back in 2007. 

[Govmnt_Lacky]

And here I thought our biggest problem was going to be having to judge 25 different fuzz or overdrive boxes!! 

In the interest of simplifying things and to just try to get to building... I propose the following:

If you can remove the component from its packaging, solder/place it in the circuit, and use it "as is" then it is OK.

If you have to hook it up to a programmer or computer to upload code or instructions to it, then it's NOT OK.

A good example would be the 2399 chip. It can be used right out of the box. Even an FV-1 chip can be used out of the box HOWEVER, the external memory commonly used to turn it into a multi effects platform needs to be programmed so it IS NOT usable.

Does that make it clearer?

[oldschoolanalog]

I strongly feel extra bonus points should be given for the use of human blood (leave the critters out of this folks!), preferably one's own. Must have video proof of the bloodletting and subsequent use. More blood = more points.
There was an entry in the last comp that used blood "as a wood stain". I thought that was brilliant especially within the context of the overall look & feel of that project.
Let the red flow! (okay, it'll be brown when dried; but you know what I mean)
PS: Any use of fake blood/trick photography/magic/etc. to emulate the appearance of blood is strictly prohibited.

[haveyouseenhim]

^what if i burn the name of my project into my arm with a soldering iron?   Points for that?  Because i really will    my body is not a temple. it is a rental car

[pinkjimiphoton]

i'll support greg... if ya have to program it, it's out.

let the games commence.

dave, i'm boxing up your fuzzface tonite, i'll try to make sure i bleed all over the thing for ya.

looks like i should have got them stitches.  big chunk of the back of my right thumb is kinda a hideous blue grey. TMI. lol...

if it falls off or something, i'll put it in the box.

i agree, these bodies are more like car rentals than temples...lol

[Jdansti]

Mine's more like a bus. 

[Ronan]

Jimi, you should have stitched it up with superglue. I haven't tried it on really deep cuts though.

I wouldn't see all the rule clarification questions as a bad thing, in fact it shows there is a lot of positive interest. Previous to Gov Lacky's above clarification it was clear as day to me that a PT2399 was OUT, but a MCU doing LFO duties was IN. (Signal Generator vs Signal Processor).

Judges, so far, all the rule clarification requests have been valid IMO. As we say in Australia, "we're not playing for sheep stations." Meaning lets not take it too seriously.

^^^DQ'ed!!!!!  That thing looks suspiciously digital.

Lets have a look inside....



Oh HELL! Rule Eight Violation! Where's the Pedal Police?

[oldschoolanalog]

@jimi: you bleed on it and I will clearcoat it to preserve it. Blue/grey skin is usually a good time to seek medical attention. Just sayin...

^what if i burn the name of my project into my arm with a soldering iron?   Points for that?  Because i really will    my body is not a temple. it is a rental car

I don't give out the points but if done in a artistic and ritualistic manner I see that being a major plus. And I do believe you will.  Just verify the potential points with the judges first before doing any body modifications  as I have no part of making the rules.
Body? Temple? LOL! Rent a car? Double LOL!!! More like disposable lighters.

[defaced]

If you can remove the component from its packaging, solder/place it in the circuit, and use it "as is" then it is OK.

If you have to hook it up to a programmer or computer to upload code or instructions to it, then it's NOT OK.

Cool, I can work with that.  I'll keep an eye on the deadline to enter and see what I can swing. Thanks for keeping the dialog going guys.